You are bringing up something very interesting here!!!
I always thought translating "bavar" as "belief" would be a poor translation. Bavar is to me much closer to "identification with" than "belief". The term belief in English does not have an element of personal attachment to it the way bavar does in Farsi. So I would prefer to translate bavar as "identification with", the way you use idenitification in Zoroastrianism as a consequence of good thoughts and words. What you think influences what you say and what you say influences what you do, which means that you ultimately BECOME what you think, so you should identify yourself as your thoughts.
So maybe bavar and iman are NOT synonyms in Farsi language after all? What do you and all other Farsi-speakers here think? After all, it is not when you believe smoking is dangerous that you stop smoking, but when you IDENTIFY yourself to yourself as a non-smoker, when you reach "bavar" about not smoking, that you stop smoking!
As for the question of "The Wise Maker", isn't the whole problem here on Ushta that we are all addressing the wrong issue??? Nobody here believes in a PERSON (like an old man with a grey beard above the clouds) as the maker of the universe. Our difference is between the BELIEF in a force outside of The Universe as the driver of existence (Panentheism) which you, Dina, Zaneta, Ali and Ronald have advocated and the BELIEF in no such force, but rather a belief in The Universe as its own force (Pantheism) of existence, where existence is en emergent quality of The Universe, which Parviz, Judy, Dino, Arthur and I have all advocated.
My point is that Zarathushtra is not interested in GUESSING in The Gathas and rather keeps a question unanswered (and thereby productive and encouraging of creativity) than guessing its answer, he is interested in knowing and not guessing and he is not afraid of not having an answer to a question (because contrary to Jesus and Muhammed he has no belief in the necessity of divine omnipotence or guardian angels sent to prophets). So Zarathushtra does not answer whether Panentheism is true or whether Pantheism is true, because the honest truth is that he did not know and we do not KNOW. And as long as we don't know, we will not have a definitive answer, the search for scientific truth will keep on going. As it should be. It is good that we do not know, because it keeps us open, tolerant, productive and creative!!! This is the religion of the spirit of Cyrus The Great!
Ushta
Alexander
2009/10/17 MoobedyAr Mehran Gheibi
Dear Judy
dorood
You wrote:
1- "... click on the below "citations" for where I got some of my information...."
a- All of the are based on same hypothesis, thus reach same results?.
b- All of them explain how a process works, but do not explain why? They do not explain why a calssium ion(for example) in my brain makes my character and the same one makes your character.
2- ".. I have a PhD in medical anthropology (area of political psychology), an MS in psychology.. ..I am not wired neurologically for romantic delusions... .that is both my curse and my "gift. ..."
That is very good. Who has told that you are not a scholar?
3- "... In my vernacular.. .the word "belief" means to state something is true without proof..."
In my vernacular the word is bAvar this word in persian-english dictionary is equal to belief. In Persain the word bAvar is a step heigher than knowing. When you know that smoking is harmful, you may smoke, but when you believe (have the belief = bAvar kardan) you never smoke. I do not know any about the real meaning of belief in English, but the word bAvar is based on science, wisedom, family or society's morals ......
4- "... Faith...also means the willingness to believe a lie or a myth....without any proof of its veracity. To have "faith" is the height of laziness and stupidity in my opinion...."
We have not a proper persian word for the word faith. We use arabian word of imAn. We use Persian word of bAvar as a synonym of faith. However non of them are blindly or any blindly one is called a bad thing.
5- "... Believers do not ask questions. ...Most such religious hypnosis is forced on children, through fear, guilt, shame, blackmail, extortion, and out right terror....I. E...If you don't "believe" in Jesus...you will suffer for ever in a lake of fire....and burn and suffer in "hell." Such promoters of this kind of religion are bullies, and hate human kind...and worse...destroy the beautiful minds of children by forcing them to close their minds to reason and logic. .."
Who has told in such bad manner? Me? Am I of such hyponsis?
However I do not believe in such manner at all. All person should choose their beliefs theirselves by free willing and bright mind.
6- "... There is no difference in a five-year old child believing in Santa Claus, and a 50 year old person "believing" in Jesus. There is no proof that Jesus existed...Although "life" teaches one that Santa Claus is just a myth, religion "compartmentalizes" the mind...whereby all logic, reason, and a quest for proof and truth regarding "Jesus" and the Abrahamic "god" is suspended, and the "believer" is actually taught to either "fear" or "enjoy" being challenged as "proof" of one's goodness (martyrhood) and belief (I can expand on this further with more research if you like.)..."
Do think that I am so ignorant that needs to be taught?
7- "... The process of feeling 'religious' in the brain, and production of brain chemistry... .takes place in the same areas of the brain, producing the same kinds of chemicals such as endorphins (the brain's form of heroin)...as occurs in drug addicts getting high. This has been demonstrated many times in MRI studies. ..."
Who has condemned/opposed science that you are teaching his.her? But the question is why endorphin has such effect? not how! Why same molecules/ ions/ atoms have become this and the same one have become that?
8- "... Religion is a belief in magic...i.e. in that if you "pray" to god...which for many is simply "begging," then you can get this "god" to interrupt the laws of physics just for you, which has never happened in all of known history...."
Where and when I told that I believe in such praying and beliefs?
I do not believe in praying as you described, at all. In ashoo Zartosht's teaching there is noting the same as you described.
9- "...hallucination or delusion, they are in the presence of a "divine" force...or a god that is "bigger" than themselves.. .and that their existence becomes small or meaningless. This has been replicated in laboratories. ..whereby the "nonreligious" do not "feel" god...but hallucinate cartoon figures, UFOs...and other characters, but not god. An electrical probe stuck in the left temporal lobe of the brain (just above the left ear)...causes religious people to hear angels sing (or so they believe). We are all hard wired for creative delusions..."
But what to me?
In gAthA it is clearly taught that God (=ahoorA mazdA) has created ashA law first and then has created all creation/ existence/universe/world and uman being a compnent of the universe upon the ashA law. Nothing is and nothing will be done out of the ashA law. Thus no prayer will be effective out of the law. God leaved existence, including human being, to work freely but should bear the outcome results.
Are you going to insult me by calling me such a believer?
Nik-o shAd bAshid
KhodA negahdAr,
MoobedyAr MehrAn Gheibi.
Kerman_Iran
--- On Wed, 10/14/09, Judy Weismonger
From: Judy Weismonger
Subject: [Ushta] Religion is Escapism, Hypnosis, Hallucinations, and Getting Stoned
To: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 4:43 AM
MoobedyAr... .I see your point...therefore, click on the below "citations" for where I got some of my information. I have a PhD in medical anthropology (area of political psychology), an MS in psychology.. .near a PhD in neuropsychology, am a master hypnotherapist, and do research. I have other graduate credits in other fields as well...and have worked as a combat photographer, journalist, and editor for eight years...when I needed to take a break from my field. There is very little that I discuss...that I have not done extensive research in...and thought about. I leave no stone unturned, and let the chips fall where they may. I am not wired neurologically for romantic delusions... .that is both my curse and my "gift."
People often confuse and intermix religiosity and politics.... but, I do not. Like you...I demand a lot of consequential proof before I jump off and make a statement that I would take to the bank....I don't "believe" in "belief."
However, although I make the claim that I am some what "learned" in the subjects I write about...I don't expect you or anyone to "just believe" me...because I said something is "true"...because that would mean that I am making the same mistakes as the "religious" who demand "belief" without substantiation and often their so called conclusions and ideas are based on a dysfunctional childhood and some kind of "neediness."
In my vernacular.. .the word "belief" means to state something is true without proof.
Faith...also means the willingness to believe a lie or a myth....without any proof of its veracity. To have "faith" is the height of laziness and stupidity in my opinion.
Most religions... fit most or all the parameters of a "cult" and are based on induced, and practiced waking hypnosis...where "disbelief" is suspended. Believers do not ask questions.
Most such religious hypnosis is forced on children, through fear, guilt, shame, blackmail, extortion, and out right terror....I. E...If you don't "believe" in Jesus...you will suffer for ever in a lake of fire....and burn and suffer in "hell." Such promoters of this kind of religion are bullies, and hate human kind...and worse...destroy the beautiful minds of children by forcing them to close their minds to reason and logic.
There is no difference in a five-year old child believing in Santa Claus, and a 50 year old person "believing" in Jesus. There is no proof that Jesus existed...Although "life" teaches one that Santa Claus is just a myth, religion "compartmentalizes" the mind...whereby all logic, reason, and a quest for proof and truth regarding "Jesus" and the Abrahamic "god" is suspended, and the "believer" is actually taught to either "fear" or "enjoy" being challenged as "proof" of one's goodness (martyrhood) and belief (I can expand on this further with more research if you like.)...
The process of feeling 'religious' in the brain, and production of brain chemistry... .takes place in the same areas of the brain, producing the same kinds of chemicals such as endorphins (the brain's form of heroin)...as occurs in drug addicts getting high. This has been demonstrated many times in MRI studies.
Religion is a belief in magic...i.e. in that if you "pray" to god...which for many is simply "begging," then you can get this "god" to interrupt the laws of physics just for you, which has never happened in all of known history. Five research studies on the efficacy of "prayer" found that those who "knew" they were being prayed for....and believed in prayer died the soonest after a second heart attack....whereas, those who were not prayed for at all and were not aware of the study (a control group)...lived the longest. Being involved in prayer....as a wish for magic, has been proven to be dangerous for one's health.
Self hypnosis taught from a very early age in the "church" shuts down a part of the brain that recognizes "time, space, and place," making the individual "feel" and have a hallucination or delusion, they are in the presence of a "divine" force...or a god that is "bigger" than themselves.. .and that their existence becomes small or meaningless. This has been replicated in laboratories. ..whereby the "nonreligious" do not "feel" god...but hallucinate cartoon figures, UFOs...and other characters, but not god. An electrical probe stuck in the left temporal lobe of the brain (just above the left ear)...causes religious people to hear angels sing (or so they believe). We are all hard wired for creative delusions.
So...have fun....my computer and internet was out for a number of days....and I now have 1000s of emails to read and responds to...including those from Ushta, who I find the most interesting and fun...Yours is a very good comment..... and certainly representative of a True Z.
Hugs, Judy
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