onsdag 23 december 2009

Asha vs Asha-Vahishta

Dear Ardeshir and Parviz

I agree Parviz doesn't have to be angry to get his point across, but I still believe he has a very good point which does not have to do with The Gathas (let's not fall into the trap of throwing Gathas verses at each other, Ardeshir, let's THINK creatively instead) but with us INTELLIGENTLY reading and understanding The Gathas and the Zoroastrian history of ideas.
And one point that has to be made here is that Asha-Vahishta not IS awe, beauty, whatever in itself, but that it BECOMES awe, beauty, whatever through our PERCEPTION. We as observers are through our wise MINDS producing these qualities, we even choose to apply these qualities, they are not there beforehand as factually given. Otherwise we have misunderstood and vulgarized the concept in The Gathas, and that would be a big pity.
Consequently, Asha-Vahistha has everything to do with a difference from Asha only and as such, as Parviz correctly points out. Asha-Vahishta is Asha applied as principle, through our free choice (not through following some Law as automatons but through a pure and free choice). It is therefore very important to make this distinction. We DECIDE that the awe is there, it is not there as factually given. A dead mind (rather than a wise mind) does not experience any Vahishta.
We should thank Parviz for pointing this out, even though the point can be made in a friendly manner and does not have to addressed aggressively. But I understand and see Parviz's frustration: Let's think and live The Gathas, let's not retard ourselves to merely quoting machines. OK?


2009/12/23 ardeshir farhmand

Dear Parviz,

i posted a response to ur claim regarding the difference between ashaa and ashaa vahishtaa as claimed by u, and argued that ur point view has no gathic support. please read the article,
also if u don't mind me asking, why do u sound so angry in ur messages???? or is this just my perception???? we are here to exchange ideas in a respectful manner. we agree to disagree at times. and my point is if we are the disciples of the ancient bard zarathushtra, we should cite his visions first and then draw our conclusions accordingly.


On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Parviz Varjavand wrote:

Dear Ardeshir,

I am glad that you are in Law. When in Sassanian times they wanted to judge if a person was telling the Truth, Asha, they would hold the person's head under water while a person would shoot an arrow and a horseman would gallop and try to retrieve the arrow and bring it back. If by the time the arrow was brought back, the poor person had not drowned, he/she was telling the truth, was an Ashavand. If the person had drowned, he /she was a lier, a Drojwand. I can see you and Alex beeing confortable in such a court of law, because you do not diffrenciate between Asha and Asha-Vahishta. Those who think of Asha as a monolit can do such things. If you do not get wat I want to say, have a happy day! I hate to waste my breath.

Karma be with you!

--- On Tue, 12/22/09, ardeshir farhmand wrote:

From: ardeshir farhmand
Subject: Re: [Ushta] The Concept of Asha/Asha vs Dao
To: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "mehrdad farahmand"
Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 8:23 AM

Dear Parviz, Alexander and Dino,

Thanks for ur kind comments, i am truly humbled. i greatly concur with Alexander
that terms such as ashaa, vohumanoe, and many others should not be translated, but clearly and lucidly explained.

it is also of paramount importance to understand such terms/concepts as they were understood in the poetic gathic language of three to four thousand years ago. as i repeatedly affirmed, manoe in the poetic gathas is much more than our today's definition of mind, it is consciousness, awareness. the german bewusstsein seems to be the closest match.

Parviz and Dino brought a very interesting point, and that is what is the practical implication of ashaa in our daily lives. this is the subject of another article, that i would be happy to elaborate on this weekend.

However, quoting Alexander the following description seems to closely fit the ancient exegesis on the subject:

"-Science deals with the pursuit of truth
- Art deals with the pursuit of beauty
- Politics deals with the pursuit of the good
- Love deals with the pursuit of passion"

Parviz, i need to affirm the following; that mixing ashaa with cosmic or ethical laws is not subsantiated by the poetic gathas, and is similar to equate knowings/bits of info with knowledge or rather meta-knowledge/ wisdom.

ashaa is the creative principle behind the rules. since my background is in law, let me give the following example. i have to say in start, that this example is not perfect, but approximate enough.

when u are in court, u must look into the laws, and follow certain rules, otherwise there will be chaos. but ur job is to be CREATIVE and think of ingenious ways to interpret the laws and expand their implication in favor of the party u represent. if the laws/rules were black and white at all times, there would have been no need for amendements to the constitution and/ or creation of new laws by the congress. in this context, u could say the ashaa here is the creative intention behind the laws, and the ability to make them evolve/grow and expand to brighter horizons.


On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:27 AM, Parviz Varjavand wrote:

Dear Alex,

Asha (for me) is also the profound stupidity of men who put too many things in one bag and call them all ASHA. All stupid religious person do this. Karma of taking a monumental crap. Thao of falling off the stairs and breaking your neck. etc..etc...


--- On Mon, 12/21/09, Alexander Bard wrote:

From: Alexander Bard
Subject: [Ushta] The Concept of Asha/Asha vs Dao
To: Ushta@yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, December 21, 2009, 8:59 PM

Dear Dino and Ardeshir

Very well written!
To better understand the concept of asha, let's look at how western philosophy has come to see human ideals:

- Science deals with the pursuit of truth
- Art deals with the pursuit of beauty
- Politics deals with the pursuit of the good
- Love deals with the pursuit of passion

Now, asha is all four at the same time. Asha is both truth, beauty, the good and passion and more specifically the pursuit of them all, therefore a term which we should insist on as just asha and not translate too easily to other languages than Avestan.


2009/12/21 Special Kain

Dear Ardeshir

It's so perfectly clear now that Daoist philosophy and Zoroastrian philosophy have so much in common!

http://www.iep. utm.edu/daoism/

It seems that Asha and Wu-Wei are almost the same: the Dao (the process of reality) as expressed through Wu-Wei (effortless action).

Ushta, Dino

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