Things DEVELOP OVER TIME because they increase the chances of our survival.
They DO NOT NEED AN EXTERIOR DESIGNER. What is about that that is so hard for you to understand?
Why can't you even grasp this? Why this irritating and constantly returning limit to your imagination?
Did you not study biology at school? O physics? Or chemistry?
Debating with you on these issues is like talking to a seven-year-old kid who refuses to LEARN or simply can not GRASP even fundamental things.
You show wisdom on so many other issues, dear Mehran, but on this issue you are forever stuck in the loop of a little boy at school who just can not grasp what the teachers are talking about. Honestly!
It is not the slighest bit interesting, it is just enormously irrititating. And I have really really had enough of this babble, this constant dance around the theme of your "The Wise Creator" who you so stubbornly refer to without any sort of evidence whatsoever. It is not even relevant to Zoroastrainism, not at all.
Enough said. This is from now on a complete non-issue to me. I have far more important things to waste my life on. And we have far more important things to discuss and deal with on Ushta.
With all the very very best intentions
Alexander
2009/11/8 MoobedyAr Mehran Gheibi
Dear Parviz
dorood
You wrote:
1- "...
Does sound exist or not? And what atomic or sub-atomic particles is sound made of?
Sound has no BODY of its own, it exist when other THINGS interact to produce it.
There can be no sound if there are no other elements interacting to produce sound.
You can not have sound out of NOTHING...."
Yes it is totally true. Thus it is named a material attribute. But the point is the ability of shaking and being shaked and being the cause of shaking that is needed for producing and transfering sound.
Now tow questions:
a- Who has decided to instal a sound producing instrument in bio robots of human being, for example? who decides to produce the sounds that means some concepts?
b- When there is one molecule, sound producing and transfering is nearly Zero, thus more condensed mater results highersound and so on. It show the cumulative property of material attributes. Is more condensed and bigger brain more wise and intelligent, too?
2- "... It is the same with intelligence, it is the same with consciousness, it is the same with even Goodness. They can not come about in a vacuum. ..."
Well, it is true, but what is the cause of such phenomena. Every phenomena has its proper material cause. A brain, a neuron is made of the same Ca, Na, K, Cl, and so on atoms just as a tree or rock ... . The dead brain has the same material compnent just the same as live one. Your television is live due to some wise maker that makes has put the material components in a very well designed order/rule to be live. If you put the componets on each other your TV would not become alive.
3- " ... you can make something out of nothing. Jinns are made of nothing, and some persons Faith says that they exist. No use arguing with them (or you to a degree), what their Faith says that exists, exists very strongly for them. Science will not back it up, but they do not give a hoot about science..."
Well, It is just the same for you, too. From where, this material world is made. You also have no way to say: "... from nothing ...", too. Is science able of explaining it? No, too.
Nik-o shAd bAshid
KhodA negahdAr,
MoobedyAr MehrAn Gheibi.
Kerman_Iran
--- On Tue, 11/3/09, Parviz Varjavand
From: Parviz Varjavand
Subject: [Ushta] DOES SOUND EXIST! (was @#&*$...etc.)
To: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 9:14 AM
Dear Moobedyar,
Does sound exist or not?
And what atomic or sub-atomic particles is sound made of?
Sound has no BODY of its own, it exist when other THINGS interact to produce it.
There can be no sound if there are no other elements interacting to produce sound.
You can not have sound out of NOTHING.
It is the same with intelligence, it is the same with consciousness, it is the same with even Goodness. They can not come about in a vacuum. When Moobed Jehan Bagli says that "his" Ahoora Mazda is "Pure Goodness", there can not be such a thing; it is a figment of his imagination. Goodness has to have Badness in order to come into existance, you can not have Pure Goodness in a vacume. Only by Faith, you can make something out of nothing. Jinns are made of nothing, and some persons Faith says that they exist. No use arguing with them (or you to a degree), what their Faith says that exists, exists very strongly for them. Science will not back it up, but they do not give a hoot about science.
Parviz
--- On Mon, 11/2/09, MoobedyAr Mehran Gheibi
From: MoobedyAr Mehran Gheibi
Subject: Re: [Ushta] Mehran's super-conscious father figure and Dewey's sociological take on The Mind
To: Ushta@yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, November 2, 2009, 9:12 PM
Dear Alexander
dorood
You also jump over the matter simply.
Does wisdom, mind, intelligence, consciousness exist or not?
There is a matrial attribute that is called weight, for example. It is the summation of a material attribute of atomic and sub-atomic particles? Well, from what /which attribute of atomic and sub-atomic particles such attribute of mind is made?
Nik-o shAd bAshid
KhodA negahdAr,
MoobedyAr MehrAn Gheibi.
Kerman_Iran
--- On Tue, 11/3/09, Alexander Bard
From: Alexander Bard
Subject: [Ushta] Mehran's super-conscious father figure and Dewey's sociological take on The Mind
To: Ushta@yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 1:44 AM
Dear Mehran
Dino's very intelligent point is that MIND can not exist as a SOLITARY unit.
In other words: God can not be intelligent unless God has other gods to be intelligent with first.
This is how consciousness comes into existence.
So Dino is merely pointing out another flaw in your logic. You should listen carefully to what he has to say.
Again, I don't see your creator as very intelligent. Ahura Mazda creates all the time, without planning in advance, like a true artist and not as as an architect. This is obvious when you study how things actually work (science).
Ushta
Alexander
2009/11/2 MoobedyAr Mehran Gheibi
Dear Dino
dorood
Why you jump the matter so easily? Are there wisdom, consciousness, intelligence or not?
Are they spiritual or material? If the are spiritual well my view point would be proved and if they are material, well which atomic, sub-atomic, quantum, process does have such attirbutes?
Is any brick intelligent enough to recognize its best place or a wise constructor upon a paln does make a house?
Nik-o shAd bAshid
KhodA negahdAr,
MoobedyAr MehrAn Gheibi.
Kerman_Iran
--- On Sun, 11/1/09, Special Kain
From: Special Kain
Subject: [Ushta] Mehran's super-conscious father figure and Dewey's sociological take on The Mind
To: Ushta@yahoogroups. com
Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 2:50 PM
(1) Don't confuse consciousness with The Almighty Creator as planner and architect. What you ceaselessly want to prove is that anything in our universe - from dark matter to bees and their hives - presupposes a conscious being as managing and creative director.
But the mind is something different altogether: The mind arises from collective human activity and, specifically, the development of socially shared meanings that govern this activity. The mind as an emerging aspect of cooperative activity is mediated by linguistic communication (see John Dewey). You can't have subjectivity without intersubjectivity. And this leads to the expansion of meaning as an ethical obligation: the enrichment of the conscious individual's apprecation of their circumstances within human culture and the world-at-large, the fact that satisfaction and achievement can be realized only within the context of social habits and institutions that promote it. So ideals and values must be evaluated with respect to their social consequences, either as inhibitors or as valuable instruments for social progress.
(2) Another thing you're talking about is parapsychological research as the means to discover and repeatedly test the spiritual (or spooky) nature of existence. Parapsychology hasn't discovered your dear Almighty Creator. Most beliefs - whether Christian monotheism or New Age esotericism - have been falsified, not only by parapsychology, but also by the established natural and social sciences.
In other words, there's no Almighty Creator sitting above the clouds and outside of his or her beautiful (and sometimes disturbing) creation. Creation as a process is the only process there is. Still no engineer required, since the subject-object- relationship is nothing but grammar. And it's language itself which creates the subject! Before communication there were no premordial subjects thinking about what to do next and how to compose larger entities.
Ushta, Dino
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