lördag 19 juni 2010

Clarification - indeed!

And in what way are you any better, Ardeshir?
In what way are your postings not narcissistic and pompous?
I actually believe that Martin is wrong here.
So I do not mind your pomposity and narcissism.
What I object to is that you are wrong ON THE ISSUES WE ARE DISCUSSING.
You worship books, you do not worship minds. So in what way do you mean that your position is Mazdayasna???
And you advocate all kinds of nonsense that modern science has done away with a long long time ago just because you claim to have found your arguments in OLD BOOKS from before science even existed.
If OLD BOOKS is your excuse for throwing forward supertitious nonsense, then we certainly do not not share then same belief and possibly not even the same religion.
And in that case it is better to be HONEST about that then to start attacking PEOPLE for being pompous and narcissistic.
Especially when those traits are the most dominant in ONE'S OWN BEHAVIOR!!!
So letäs not beat around the bush here: Do you believe in supersitions, Ardeshir? Come on now, tell us the truth, what DO YOU BELIEVE, not what does any book say???

2010/6/19 ardeshir farhmand

Dear Martin;

Thanks for this BRILLIANT posting. the problem on this list is that there is NO respectful, healthy debate;
There is ONE way and that is the way of narcissistic, pseudo-rationalism which is incapable of withstanding any intelligent inquiry/examination.

anyone that does NOT subscribe to and/or dares to question their superficial knowledge is treated in the most condescending, hostile manner possible;
furthermore, any legitimate question is ignored and the same old positions are repeated.
alexander asked me to refrain from engaging PV and cool off, instead he goes on and attacks my record as "idiocy."

as i said, alexander, dino, the scientist and PV are always right; they do not even consider that their position could be wrong, so what is point??????? we are dealing with god-syndrome here.

bottom line is this PV is BORED and enjoys all this noise and commotion, the point is not learning something new, but shooting down anyone who offers s different point of view than theirs.
me for my part do not have the time or interest to partake in this unfruitful arguments anymore.
i like to be a true mazdyasni and LEARN something new and better, instead of being bored by the same old, repetitive, counter-productive arguments!!!!!!

it would be interesting to see if they would engage and legitimately answer the question posed to them or continue with their self-fixated, condescending style.


On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:16 AM, Martin Grossmann wrote:

Dear Friend on the Ushta List,

I have been reading the last days the posts of this list and certainly I understand all the points made. I love Ardeshirs articles and I learn much from the different opinions on this forum. Discussion in a healthy manner is always a good contribution to one`s education and further path in life.

All of the positions here are different viewpoint that will always exist in MZ. Persons in Iran or India, people with heritage from there but living in the western world and convert / interested people in the western world will perceive MZ differently due to the different identities of these people. Cultural influence is leading our minds towards certain thing schemes and we would like to open ourselves but sometimes we are caught and cannot get out to understand others.

Some of you perceive MZ MORE as a philosophical system where there is a goal (good actions, etc) and besides that rules are based on righteous / healthy balanced manners. Some of you perceive MZ MORE as a religion with a spiritual and cultural tradition contained in books, legends and rituals.

Depending on your cultural influence and individuality, the definition of a supreme power or reality. Was a power existent before us or does it exist because we believe it. Is the world influenced by this power or is this power a regulation inside the system of creation. What is the soul or are we just a biological machine consisting of parts that fall apart when death comes to us.

Many famous and intelligent people since the ancient times have asked themselves these questions. In Philosophy and Religion. These two do not have to contradict themselves as many suppose on this list. Religion is more strict and some people feel more secure in such systems. Some do not even believe in the strictness and still are members of a religion. Some do the rituals because it belongs to their heritage.

At the end we realize that the people make the world and not the world makes the people.
MZ is a system that has a goal (one sentence) but there are many paths. Sometimes I believe people forget this and want to make their way the best way because it is more logical or efficient or whatever. The results counts.

Some people on this list might believe in good deeds, actions and thoughts, but then in their postings you hear a self-loving intellectual esteem that you might ask yourself if they really are that good to think they are better or their ways are better. We have to understand there is no sense to discuss this. Religious leaders and Philosophers have talked about this many thousand years and Zarathustra is actually personality that is showing us that both do not have to contradict itself. The balance is the importance.
We need people to talk about different views to give us other options and angles. But is there really sense of talking about who is right or wrong ? There are people that I do not understand, people with (after my opinion) unlogical thinking or sometimes fanatical neglect of other ways. But I dont interfere as long as they hold themselves accountable to the one sentence MZ is all about. If they understand where the limits are, then we are on common ground. That makes us Adherents of Zarathustra and not our differences.

In the last days I thought I have been reading post from a christian list. Not because of the questions or opinions, but the treatment and behaviour towards others.
We have to concentrate ourselves on being truthful and righteous, and if you need a book to read how to do it (and understanding what it means) or your own intelligence fulfills the task, then so be it.

But talking about differences that existed before us (as long as people asked themselves these questions), exist now and will exist, are not of any value towards our path. How are you going to change a path if you live by something that nobody can prove or knows.
WE are just human. Live as you are pleased and tolerate others that are pleased by something else. The only difference on this list is the goal of life. And THAT is the same for all of the members of this list.

I think it is a waste of energy and a sign of ignorance of mankind to make claims or think about subjects, that are unimagineable or
not proven. Any scientist could tell you that. We can guess and some members here do that. But taking their guess to be universal is wrong.

AS long as the way is clear, the shoes are not important. Some feel better with such types, some with others.
Please keep that in mind and let us concentrate on the basic of MZ.

"Good actions, words and deeds"

And last time I looked that meant not towards oneself ;)

Ardeshir you can post your articles and if someone wants to understand something or contribute, that has to happend in a good manner and with good words. Other opinions will be tolerated, but repetition of clear opinions of a person is just a waste of time.

Example: Ardeshir is the more spiritual type with references towards cultural and religious tradtions (books)
Parviz does not like books. Parviz criticizes books. Ardeshir likes books. Differences are set and not changeable.

Does a discussion each time make sense ? A repetition of the same process is not really contructive on a list. But at least Ardeshirs articels are informative while Parviz`s opinion repeats itself and I get nothing out of this as long as I understand that there are these counterparties as mentioned in the example.

So I do not read his opinion. It gives me no additional utility towards my understanding or intelligence. Not because I am that smart but I do understand that there are things that are not changeable. if you talk about such things and come again, again criticising them, then probably you like to hear yourself talking.


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