måndagen den 14:e december 2009

The concept of the illuminating bridge in Zoroastrian Faith, Norse Mythology and the al Sirat in Islam

Dear Ardeshir and Dino

1. Bahman Varza is a leading Zoroastrian scholar who is unfortunately not with us here on Ushta so there is no point in discussing his ideas since he can not explain them to us here. We hope to be able to have him with us at a later stage when he can develop his theories further and we can then accept of refute them. Until then, I don't see any reason why Ardeshir should not be right on this issue.

2. Ardeshir of course has a point which in turn leads us to a possible third option: Namely that Ardeshir is right that the text in question fits into The Gathas perfectly, but that the text is METAPHORICAL rather than meant to be taken literally. I personally believe strongly in this view as it fits in with everything else Zarathushtra states in The Gathas. Perhaps this possibility never even struck Varza?


2009/12/14 Special Kain
- Dölj citerad text -

Dear Ardeshir

Well, you're taking this far too personally! ;-)
Bahman Varza is a really clever guy whose translation is philosophically precise. He doesn't impose his own biased opinions on others, but discusses his doubts in footnotes. And he's a scientist, since he's a doctor.
The most important thing is to present Zoroastrianism as what it is and get rid of that heavily Christianized misunderstanding. It's not some primitively proto-Christian faith! And that's what we have to tell the world. So I guess that you and Varza and most Zoroastrians I know (whether you personally like their translations or not) share the same enthusiasm.

Ushta, Dino

--- ardeshir farhmand schrieb am Mo, 14.12.2009:

Von: ardeshir farhmand
Betreff: Re: [Ushta] Fwd: The concept of the illuminating bridge in Zoroastrian Faith, Norse Mythology and the al Sirat in Islam
An: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Montag, 14. Dezember 2009, 22:28

Dear Dino,

if there is an allegation of insertion there must be "credible evidence" to substantiate such allegation, otherwise it is HEARSAY. now, making repeated allegations without proof or slightest evidence to back it up is not constructive, and shows rather personal bias and lack of interest in an obective approach.

i can not pass any opinion on Mr. Varza's translation since i have not read his work. i believe a good translation would be an objective and comparative study of the songs, and then adding ur conclusions as footnotes, and let the readers draw their own conclusions.

i can cite taraporewala's translation as such an example. although the reader may differ and disagree with him on a number of points, he provides an in-depth discussion of the songs and allows us to explore the original by ourselves. the aforementioned approach is fair and objective and should be followed by all those interested in translating and/or researching the gathas.

furthermore, we are here to brainstorm and OBECTIVELY discuss the gathas and the zoroastrian philo. it is not about personal bias, personal critic and/or anything personal.


On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Special Kain wrote:

Dear Ardeshir

So let me please repeat what I've said already: I can't speak for Bahman Varza. We invited him several weeks ago, but he's obviously not interested in discussing Zoroastrian issues and his philosophically precise German translation of the Gathas with us.
And please don't preach to the already converted: you're talking to a scientist here. ;-)

Ushta, Dino

--- ardeshir farhmand schrieb am Mo, 14.12.2009:

Von: ardeshir farhmand
Betreff: Re: [Ushta] Fwd: The concept of the illuminating bridge in Zoroastrian Faith, Norse Mythology and the al Sirat in Islam
An: Ushta@yahoogroups. com
CC: "mehrdad farahmand"
Datum: Montag, 14. Dezember 2009, 18:58

Dear Dino,

concerning the alleged insertions in the gathas, i need to see the citings, the reasoning behind the suggestion that it is an insertion, the linguistic and poetic evidence, the comparative literature, and in short strict adherence to the "scientific method" of research and study. since u persist on this notion of the "alleged insertions," i have to emphasize that any scientific study will prove the insertion suggestions to be INVALID.

the problem we have here ,is that some people pen their own ideas under the name of zarathushtra ,and when presented with an in-depth rebuttal, they are just dismissive.

their response is that, o such and such theme is inserted by karpans, greeks,..... .. without providing the slightest proof, evidence, linguistic, cultural and/or comparative study to substantiate their PERSONAL OPINIONS. please, note, that i call it an opinion, because it even fails to meet the definition of a weak theory.

my educational background is LAW, and we call all such noise HEARSAY. in US courts HEARSAY is DISMISSED. especially when it can not provide even the remotest possibility for it to be admitted into evidence.

my question for proponents of such HEARSAY arguments is this, if many of these concepts that are displeasing to their taste, are insertions and/or inventions, how come there is no precedence for them prior to zarathushtra, especially in the twin vedic religion???? ?

how come these ideas/concepts start uniquely with the seer z, and there is no vidence of their lively presence somewhere else???? the closest we come to such concepts are the norse mythology. that is why the arab/moors called the vikings majus or zoroastrians. they figured the similarity, but again the basic norse concepts take a brilliant and ingenious form in zarathushtrian songs. the ideas take a brilliant, genial and life-affirming, luminous form without ANY substanial prior precedence in any other philo or literature.
hence the persistence of early missionaries to greatly lower the age of zarathushtra, to prove the supemacy of western christian thought .

it is one thing not to like or agree with what u read. it is completely another matter when u come up with the idea to call it an insertion or later, unrelated addition.

please keep in mind, zarathushtra was a bard, seer-poet, he composed his VISIONS in melody and song. if u want to understand his gathas, u can not afford to overlook this fact. he had visions of higher realm of consciousness, wisdom, awareness and understanding. visions that are based on "meta-knowledge." alexander bard, used this phrase when talking about difference between info and wisdom to understand the info and i think it fits here rather well.

it is of paramount importance to understand his vocabulary, words like "manoe," are more than just our minds, and good brains in his ancient language. it means spirit, awareness, consciousness, undestanding which our today's definition of mind is only a part of the above.

again, if someone throws an allegation concerning insertions in the gathas, or alleges that such and such book is a greek idea, he/she MUST support his/her allegation by the scientific method, otherwise it is HEARSAY and lacks any scientific weight or credibility.


On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Special Kain wrote:

Dear Ardeshir

I can't speak for Bahman Varza. He's sure to have discovered passages in the Gathas that were inserted by the Kaplans decades after Zarathushtra's death. And I don't believe in any spooky and astral theme parks, by the way. It's important to study and cross-read the Gathas and as many translations as possible, but we also have to bear the latest scientific findings in mind. Only because Zarathushtra once said this and that doesn't make it any more real than science.

Ushta, Dino

--- ardeshir farhmand schrieb am Mo, 14.12.2009:

dear dino

and what is the basis of such assertion and how could be this explained when the occurences of such poems in gathas are in complete harmony with the rest of poetry, both metriclayy and linguistically? ??? and how u explain that beside zarathushtra and norse mythology u find it nowhere else??????

it is easy for these people to claim to follow the scientifc method but when they are presented with a rebutta, they are just dismissive without following the scientific mthod themselves!! !!

my entire fortune


On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:43 AM, Special Kain wrote:

Dear Ardeshir and Alexander

As I understand him, Bahman Varza believes that such passages about a bridge connecting our natural world with astral theme parks were inserted in the Gathas many, many years after Zarathushtra's death. He thinks that such passages don't fit with the rest of the Gathas, because there's no talk about such an astral paradise or hell. And when being already dead, people couldn't change their behavior towards the natural world anymore, so any final judgment wouldn't make much sense.

My two cents,

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