You clearly have absolutely no idea at all of what you're talking about.
When Kristoll invented Neo-Conservatism in 1968 he did so PRECISELY by hijacking the language of the social sciences and present CONSERVATISM as a SOCIAL SCIENCE. Without Kristoll, there would have been no Ronald Reagan as President of the United States. Just as ONE among THOUSANDS of examples of non-socialist or anti-socialist sociology.
Equalling social sciences with socialism is therefore outright IDIOTIC!
Zarathushtra wrote EXTENSIVELY about SOCIETY and society as civilization in The Gathas. It is one of Zoroastrianism's major themes. He clearly sees no freedom without a social context, but rather he sees civilization as that which SETS US FREE as individuals. Why don't you study Zoroastrianism with an open mind? Keep off those Randian extremist glasses.
And if there were socialists among us Zoroastrians (which I am sure there are) you are going to have to learn to live with that too. Or just leave!!! Your sectarian intolerance towards all dissent from your extremist worldview is becoming totally unbearable. Why don't you just stay in your Randian sect if you are NOT interested in Zoroastrianism???
Alexander/extremely tired of this Randian propaganda, wonders what it has to do with Zoroastrianism (if there is a connection, please explain it), and does not believe in objectivism at all (because Ayn Rand frankly did not understand Immanuel Kant, reality is a product of the mind and not immediately accessible to us as humans), STILL I accept that there are Randian Zoroastrians, AS LONG AS THEY accept that there are non-Randian Zoroastrians too, and that that acceptance is SACRED to us all!!!
2009/10/22 Judy Weismonger
In answer to your question as to where this "discussion" came from...here is the chronological history:
There was a person who began posting about the importance of the "collective" of Zarathustra, and then the poster began to explain that the term "collective" was aligned with the values of "tribalism" (of all things), which I then associated with insect societies/ant hills/herds/juntas/communes/state dictatorships, etc....That was over two weeks ago and the discussion counter to this claim that the "collective" didn't mean socialism ensued...
I reacted, because the term "collective"...is a socialist term...and is not used in any other field but sociology and social work.
The definition of the word...To wit: "Collectives are also characterised by attempts to share and exercise political and social power and to make decisions on a consensus-driven and egalitarian basis. Collectives differ from cooperatives in that they are not necessarily focused upon an economic benefit or saving (but can be that as well)...Collective consciousness is a term created by French social theorist Émile Durkheim that describes how an entire community or a majority comes together to share similar values....(Judy here: at whose expense and what are the consequences for the individual who refuses to obey the "collective?" I asked this question three times and received no answer.)...
Then one poster wrote...that the word "collective" seemed to "upset" me....and then suggested that the word be changed to "community and society." Meaning....the words are changed, but in reality and in the socialist vernacular, all such words mean and refer to the same thing within the sociologists' field of study, which is highly politicized and comes with an extensive socialist agenda and founding background.
Then...someone began expounding on the founders of sociology....which I then cited all the literature in which the word "collective" is used in a socialist context....
Words mean distinct things...and in certain fields...there is a vocabulary for each field that may mean one thing in one discipline and something different or more loaded with meaning and political intent in another field. In my field of research, the syntax, grammatical usage, and lexicon of "words" and content are highly significant...and not thrown around carelessly for others to figure out what has been said and intended.
In the field of sociology, such syntax, vocabularies the associated lexicon of various words are tied like a noose to socialism and are loaded with meaning and most often acts of "social justice." If such a poster had a background in 'science" or say "history" (or whose field of study did not reject science and biology) then the word "society" would mean something completely different, and would NOT be used to refer to the word "collective" (collectivism)...used by a sociologist....or a social worker to mean all the same thing as "society."
I do not know of a single psychologist, psychiatrist, physician, scientist, surgeon, historian, a real researcher, or any hereditary Zoroastrian...who has ever used the term "collective" in my life time...except as a term of derision. And therefore, if you are so against such police state socialism as enforced and created by a "collective," I suggest that such posters choose vocabularies carefully, and also explain carefully what the term means....or such free use of such politically loaded and significant words as "collective" just might be understood.
So, therefore, I apologize if I misunderstood that you are not 100% socialist, but just a little socialist....and that the field you are in....is trying desperately to unlock themselves from their sordid founders who have caused so much pain, death, and destruction based on an "anti-science" dogma. Well...good for them. Reality does teach valuable lessons.... But, in the end...whether it is soft, sneaky socialism, or hard-core socialism...I will continue to state my objections.
Ushta Hugs, Judy
--- On Wed, 10/21/09, Special Kain
From: Special Kain
Subject: Re: AW: [Ushta] Zoroastrian American Philosophers: The Case of John Dewey
Date: Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 9:39 PM
And who said otherwise, dear Judy?
Do you see anyone promoting socialism here?
Will the real socialist please stand up?
OK, there are no socialists here. False alarm, Judy!
Why is that? Because Zoroastrian philosophy is past the distinction between the individual and the community. Most of us can see that you can't have one without the other. Can you?
--- Judy Weismonger
Von: Judy Weismonger
Betreff: Re: AW: [Ushta] Zoroastrian American Philosophers: The Case of John Dewey
An: Ushta@yahoogroups. com
Datum: Mittwoch, 21. Oktober 2009, 22:33
Thank you Jehan...you have demonstrated that Zs do very well without a socialist state...and that what they respect is "intellectual capital"...meaning the creative abilities of the individual "mind" not controlled or engineered by the state, or the Left or whatever...which results in an entire community benefitting from the bottom up (individuals) rather the socialist ideal of from the top down...being ruled and told what to do by Weberian "elites." Ayn Rand said the same thing...I do wish others immerse themselves in Rand so that they can intelligently and correctly understand "individualism" and ethical capitalism .
It is one thing to band together for protection as has the Z's chamber of commerce...and another thing where "unions" become an extension of the state...and do the bidding of the state, including coerce those who don't belong to unions...Unions in the US have an extended history of being no more than thugs who rob from their own members and engage in protectionism of those who are incompetent.
...below is the entire article about Zs chamber of commerce...which I think deserves to be read by all CONVERTS seeking to understand what and how Zoroastrianism is beneficial in the everyday world and has zero to do with either statism or top-down "elitist" socialism... or the utopian idealism of Marxist sociologists. ... on any level.
The World Zarathushti Chamber of Commerce (WZCC) was established by and for members of the community to facilitate networking, increase trade, commerce and economic welfare.
The Chamber plans to enhance the economic well being of the community by using the vast resources available, including intellectual capital and existing business talent and know-how to create opportunities for our young adults.
As long as commerce has existed, traders have banded together. The first purpose of their association may have been to seek common protection against competition. Later, codes were established to govern trade whilst at the same time attempting to influence local legislation and laws. These early pioneers and traders have little in common with our modern Chambers of Commerce, which has ended up as a more refined product.
The WZCC will generally undertake promoting the sale of goods & services. The Chamber will facilitate market relationships and in general will promote the interest of its members. The emergence of our Chamber as a true community organization will come later when business leaders realize that their own prosperity depends upon the development of opportunities within our community.
A strong focus of the Chamber will be on education & research, governmental relations, infrastructure planning, economic development, business and professional growth and leadership development through various initiatives and incentives. The community's growth and support by their businesses will reflect on the strong value of the Chamber.
The Chamber's World Headquarters are in North America and its members hope that this would be the prelude to an exchange of trade and commerce between Zarathushti communities worldwid, thus leading to the formation of chapters throughout the world.
The aim of the Chamber is to rejuvenate the entrepreneurial spirit from within our fold by providing a helping hand, partnerships and an exciting future.
The Chamber's main asset will be its database providing information of topics ranging from job availability and business opportunities to a bank of current data on Who's Who in Zarathushti Business Worldwide.
WZCC invites business initiatives, encourages networking and allows our members to enunciate or advertise their businesses and concepts too.
Again, thank you Jehan....I love seeing the more practical applications of Zism put into practice...esepcial ly for the converts to understand how Zism works in every day life.