lördag 10 oktober 2009

Pantheism and Zoroastrianism

Which is exactly why Zoroastrianism is MORE than Pantheism only.
I used to be a member of the World Pantheist Society but dispproved of the way it was organised (it has no democratic organisation and is completely in the hands of its rather totalitarian founder) and also found its message lacking. Zoroastrainism is so much MORE than the new age-y type of Pantheism preached by the WPS from California. I prefer to refer to Zoroastrianism as "Pantheism-Plus". Concepts like Ahura Mazda and Asha do not exist within the Pantheism of the WPS. They have no ethics at all, which we indeed do.
But of course Zoroastrianism is a Pantheistic religion, to which we have also reached agreement to include PanENtheism since many Zoroastrians seem to want to keep this possibility open too. Many forms of Buddhism, Daoism and Hinduism are Pantheistic too (like Brahmanism).

2009/10/9 Special Kain

Dear Bahman,

I agree considering the fact that panentheism states that God is not only within the forces and workings of nature, but also The Greater Force beyond the physical world as we know it, with pantheism subtracting such supernatural inclinations and equating God with the universe and all the stars within - with intelligence (Mazda) being its most adorable aspect.
However, revering and celebrating the universe doesn't necessarily mean that pantheists are going to love EVERYTHING. Pantheism shouldn't be confused with undifferentiated affirmation. The enjoyment of life is an ethical imperative indeed, but it does not allow for cruelty, humiliation or pollution. This is why ethics is no picnic! It's quite tough, since we have to justify why our great love of existence doesn't allow for anything that does exist in this world.

Ushta, Dino

--- Bahman Noruziaan schrieb am Fr, 9.10.2009:

Von: Bahman Noruziaan
Betreff: [Ushta] Pantheism vs. Zoroastrianism (1)
An: "Ushta Ushta"
Datum: Freitag, 9. Oktober 2009, 21:31

Since there have been several references to Pantheism in this mailing list, I browsed the website of World Pantheism at
http://www.pantheis m.net/manifest. htm and looked for, found and started reading their Belief Statement.
I presumed that, this is an authentic site. If not, please correct me before I continue with my future postings along this thread.

I will put my humble and admittedly not very deep and not very educated thoughts about this ideology/religion (if you like) in relationship with my understanding of Zoroastrianism and as a Zoroastrian layperson and not a scholar, in a few postings.

The Pantheists declare:

"1. We revere and celebrate the Universe as the totality of being, past, present and future. It is self-organizing, ever-evolving and inexhaustibly diverse. Its overwhelming power, beauty and fundamental mystery compel the deepest human reverence and wonder."

A Zoroastrian also reveres and celebrates the Universe. From a Zoroastrian point of view however, existence is not bound to what our senses and instruments of senses have detected so far. Existence is not limited to matter and energy that has been measured by our instruments, unless and until it is proven scientifically that this matter/energy has been existent for ever. In that case and then Universe has the same meaning as existence from a Zoroastrian point of view.

There is a vast source of existence from which the visible and measurable universe has sprung and is springing out. Universe of existence engulfs the Universe that our measurements have found so far. A Zoroastrian also, believes that Universe (existence) is self-organizing (organizer and organization are the same), ever-evolving and diverse. Universe is beautiful and mysterious. It is however, as a Zoroastrian realistically sees; painful and at times ugly! It has inherent destructive powers some of which are manifested in human beings destructive powers of lie, deceit, discrimination, murder, torture, harm and so on! Zoroastrianism traditionally has called this inherent ugly part of the observable existence (Universe) as Ahriman.

The Pantheists declare:

"2. All matter, energy, and life are an interconnected unity of which we are an inseparable part. We rejoice in our existence and seek to participate ever more deeply in this unity through knowledge, celebration, meditation, empathy, love, ethical action and art."

I see this statement in harmony of my Zoroastrian world view. I however, take the word meditation as the Gathic and Avestan as well as Persian word Sraosha (Soroush), the direct conduit of acquiring knowledge via connecting to the vast source of knowledge via what has been poetically referred to as heart.

The Pantheists declare:

"3. We are an integralpart of Nature, which we should cherish, revere and preserve in all itsmagnificent beauty and diversity. We should strive to live in harmony withNature locally and globally. We acknowledge the inherent value of all life,human and non-human, and strive to treat all living beings with compassion andrespect."

I see this statement in harmony with my Zoroastrian world view, considering the same point as I mentioned above that nature is not totally beautiful. It has a real ugly face too. A face that must be acknowledged confronted and dealt with. A Zoroastrian also strives to live in harmony with thelaws of Universe that happen to govern its ugly side too, and in order to usethe splendid, constructive and beautiful power of Existence (Universe) to tame its ugly and painful face and to make the world a better place, a more beautiful and harmless place for all life, a state called freshokereti in Zoroastrianism.

..... the rest I will write later.

Ushta you all


2 kommentarer:

gregory sa...

I do suggest you take a look at my book, published this summer, which takes both Zoroastrianism and pantheism into a bigger (and clearer) picture. It has been very well received from all sides, bridging the gap, as it were, between creationist fundamentalists and neo-Darwinists. You can find out more at http://www.sunofgod.net

Samuel Maynes sa...

If you are interested in some new ideas on religious pluralism, the Trinity, and panentheism, please check out my website at www.religiouspluralism.ca. It previews my book, which has not been published yet and is still a “work-in-progress.” Your constructive criticism would be very much appreciated.

My thesis is that an abstract version of the Trinity could be Christianity’s answer to the world need for a framework of pluralistic theology.

In a constructive worldview: east, west, and far-east religions present a threefold understanding of One God manifest primarily in Muslim and Hebrew intuition of the Deity Absolute, Christian and Krishnan Hindu conception of the Universe Absolute Supreme Being; and Shaivite Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist apprehension of the Destroyer (meaning also Consummator), Unconditioned Absolute, or Spirit of All That Is and is not. Together with their variations and combinations in other major religions, these religious ideas reflect and express our collective understanding of God, in an expanded concept of the Holy Trinity.

The Trinity Absolute is portrayed in the logic of world religions, as follows:

1. Muslims and Jews may be said to worship only the first person of the Trinity, i.e. the existential Deity Absolute Creator, known as Allah or Yhwh, Abba or Father (as Jesus called him), Brahma, and other names; represented by Gabriel (Executive Archangel), Muhammad and Moses (mighty messenger prophets), and others.

2. Christians and Krishnan Hindus may be said to worship the first person through a second person, i.e. the experiential Universe or "Universal” Absolute Supreme Being (Allsoul or Supersoul), called Son/Christ or Vishnu/Krishna; represented by Michael (Supreme Archangel), Jesus (teacher and savior of souls), and others. The Allsoul is that gestalt of personal human consciousness, which we expect will be the "body of Christ" (Mahdi, Messiah, Kalki or Maitreya) in the second coming – personified in history by Muhammad, Jesus Christ, Buddha (9th incarnation of Vishnu), and others.

3. Shaivite Hindus, Buddhists, and Confucian-Taoists seem to venerate the synthesis of the first and second persons in a third person or appearance, ie. the Destiny Consummator of ultimate reality – unqualified Nirvana consciousness – associative Tao of All That Is – the absonite* Unconditioned Absolute Spirit “Synthesis of Source and Synthesis,”** who/which is logically expected to be Allah/Abba/Brahma glorified in and by union with the Supreme Being – represented in religions by Gabriel, Michael, and other Archangels, Mahadevas, Spiritpersons, etc., who may be included within the mysterious Holy Ghost.

Other strains of religion seem to be psychological variations on the third person, or possibly combinations and permutations of the members of the Trinity – all just different personality perspectives on the Same God. Taken together, the world’s major religions give us at least two insights into the first person of this thrice-personal One God, two perceptions of the second person, and at least three glimpses of the third.

* The ever-mysterious Holy Ghost or Unconditioned Spirit is neither absolutely infinite, nor absolutely finite, but absonite; meaning neither existential nor experiential, but their ultimate consummation; neither fully ideal nor totally real, but a middle path and grand synthesis of the superconscious and the conscious, in consciousness of the unconscious.

** This conception is so strong because somewhat as the Absonite Spirit is a synthesis of the spirit of the Absolute and the spirit of the Supreme, so it would seem that the evolving Supreme Being may himself also be a synthesis or “gestalt” of humanity with itself, in an Almighty Universe Allperson or Supersoul. Thus ultimately, the Absonite is their Unconditioned Absolute Coordinate Identity – the Spirit Synthesis of Source and Synthesis – the metaphysical Destiny Consummator of All That Is.

For more details, please see: www.religiouspluralism.ca

Samuel Stuart Maynes