A religion of masochism or fascination? Part 2

I agree, Dino and Ron!
Let's not forget that Zoroastrianism has always been opposed to ASCETICISM.
Asceticism must be the ultimate form of religious masochism. The idea that isolating and punishing yourself and denying yourself any of life's pleasures (presumably before the face of God) would somehow be of your GAIN in the other end.
The Zoroastrian opposition to asceticism is almost unique among religions. This is clearly an area where Zoroastrianism is different BOTH from the Abrahamic religions (the monks, nuns, sects and sufis) and from Eastern religions (the yogi of India etc). So perhaps our opposition to masochism is unique too. After all, it's the same theme.
Ushta
Alexander

2009/1/26 special_kain
- Dölj citerad text -

It reminds me of what Jacques Lacan defined as "jouissance", that
over-sexualized enjoyment and pleasure that you can hardly bear and
that's often experienced as somewhere between pleasure and pain, as
opposed to the pleasure principle where you're told to enjoy as little
as possible.
Now take this principle and the fact that (some) people are trying to
transgress it, and they're granted to experience jouissance through
Christ's suffering. That's when you get religious masochism, because
you give them direction and a setting where they're allowed to indulge
in jouissance. And that's why they literally enjoy it. Unfortunately,
it's a setting of guilt, remorse, sorrows, suffering and,
paradoxically, painful self-restraints.

My two cents,
Dino // not sure of my special reading of Lacan's theory, but we'll
see if anybody has/wants to add anything or correct me


--- In Ushta@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Bard wrote:
>
> True!!!
> But there also seems to be a very basic NEED towards this metaphysical
> masochism with many people. not forced on them, but coming from
> inside. Perhaps it's something tribal, perhaps even deeper, like a
> method of survival in nomadism which has become destructive later in
> history but still lingers, now being used for destructive
> manipulation.
> Zoroastrians have always reacted against this masochism, it disturbed
> Zarathushtra enormously, a passion he shares with Spinoza and
> Nietzsche. I strongly believe it was instrumental to my decision to
> convert. It was always the dialogue with divinity which I loved about
> Mazdayasna. This creative obsession with equality, this constant
> disregard towards herarchy and the willingness to maintain
> hierarchies.
> Ushta
> Alexander
>
> 2009/1/25 ztheist :

> >
> >
> > Ushta Alex
> >
> > A very interesting post. I believe that the reason for this self
> > destructive wish for enslavement is brain washing. Never forget that
> > in Xianity , at least, we are all ultimately responsible for the
> > torture murder of the 'son' of God. That is got to be the ultimate
> > guilt trip!
> >
> > Ushta te
> > Ron