The nonsense about creation needing a creator

Dear Mehran

You have proved absolutely nothing at all.
It is YOU and nobody else who claim that nothing can create itself but that everything needs a creator to be created (which is blatanatly untrue, phsyics is full of emergent phenomena which create themselves, snow, ice and stream are three such perfect examples which all orinate from water but ten create THEMSELVES).
Then next you SENSATIONALLY claim that only a very special God can create itself.
That is not logical at all. That is just a blind and totally unfounded belief.
It is not even a Zoroastrian belief. It is the same old story Muslims have always told about Allah. Zarathushtra NEVER told such stories about Ahura Mazda.
I have thereby nothing to add to this discussion and since you are also constantly accusing EVERYBODY who disagres with you of also insulting you (which is bltanrtly untrue, nobody has has insulted you on the Ushta List, only questioned the sanity of your increasingly erractic statements). I will hereby discontinue my discussions with you. They lead only into a dead end street of nonsense. The same old Abrahamic nonsense I have always wanted to escape, like any decent thinker would. We should be able to do much better in 2009.
Let's move on now to more fruitful discussions. And that counts for you too, Mehran!

Ushta
Alexander

2009/1/1 MoobedyAr Mehran Gheibi

Dear Alexander
dorood
You wrote:
1- "... This is silly..." Once again, when you have not logical answer start to insult to escape from answering.
2-"... If material existences can not exist without a cause, then no SPRITUAL existence can exist without a cause either. And spiritual existences can not create a material existence...."
Nothing except for one unique God.
3- "... When and how would this happen in that case? ..."
For example, when a carpenter's mind uses the material instrument, including his/her body, saw, hammer.... to make/create a chair.
4- "...Actually, there is no evidence whatsoever that there are any spiritual and non-material existences whatsoever anywhere. Except for in your imagination, although you strongly suggest that you have no imagination at all..."
Your instrument is material. Thus you can not observe the spiritual entities, at all, and can never observe them, unless a proper tool is invented in future.
5- "... Although actually, every time you think anything, Mehran, your thought can be shown to be MATERIAL on any modern brainscanner. So the spiritual in man is also material, chemicals and hormones interacting with nerve ends in the brain and with each other..."
These are the hardwares that the UrvAn uses them to observe outside material world, just as a person who uses computer.
6- "...Your babble makes absolutely no sense. Can you please explain this to us HOW something spiritual (whatever that is) can create something material? Using WHAT??? And WHO created the spiritual non-material entity, using WHAT???..."
Foe example, a spiritual mind arranges words in a proper set and creats a poem, or a constructor makes a building. My tools are material too, and thus I am not able to observe them too. But however, I am sure that a brick can not go by itself and sit on its proper place to construct a building unless a planner has made a proper plan and a constructor works following the plan.

7- "...Ali Jafarey always stated that Zoroastrianism MUST be in accordance with science,. But you and Jafarey seem so far off from each other now that your two theologies bear no remesemblance with each other anymore. This is merely hocus-pocus superstitions without any foundation in The Gathas whatsoever..."
Science uses material tools, thus can not say anything in the case of spirituallity, if however be fair. If someone closes his/her eyes on such inability, it would be unfair and illogic.
In gAthA's teachings, science makes human being able of doing, but spiritual mind decide in which way.
It is evident in 28-1, for example. In the verse it is mentioned : "... O' wise maker, that are the superior and first in Spirituality, I bow my head and rise my hand to pray you and wish to have peacful security/grith, and do my all daily deed in accordAnce with ashA (= science), and be my wisdom in accordance with vohoo mana (=the loving personality=good mind), {why?} to make the living world happy."
How a material knief is able to decide what is better to cut?