I always avoid constructing hierarchies. There are no such hierarchies in The Gathas etc, only differences in complexity. So I don't rate between humans and animals etc but rather see each thing for itself, all being sacred.
The whole idea that we as humans are somehow more "responsible" because we can "think" is alien to me, I find that concept very Christian. We are only as responsible as we would like to be.
And Zarathushtra's point is that our reponsibility comes through our KNOWLEDGE of our condition. We simply have responsibilities when we realise how things work in feedback loops, most of all Civilization in itself.
Creation is asha manifest in Ahura, Civilization is asha manifest in Mazda. Asha is nit superior intellect as such but a willingness to be constructive and creative, a will to create!
Turn yourself into a victim and hate the world and you will live in druj.
2009/8/10 Special Kain
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You got several things totally wrong.
> I agree, we are influenced by instincts but we are much more able to choose between one course and another and especially to imagine and be creative. It is not just trial and error.
I never said so. I didn't even mention any learning techniques that we're capable of.
> I totally disagree that people just follow convenience and habit. I certainly haven't. You must be hanging around some pretty boring people if they just follow convenience and habit!!!
Ignoring conventions makes most encounters with other people incredibly complicated. It is necessary to follow the rules in order to reduce the ever increasing complexity within modern societies. But, of course, I forgot to mention the idealists in that passage, I mentioned idealism further below.
> Yes, people behave more aggressively as long as they can rationally explain the crime.
AND ALSO when they feel unobserved. That was my point.
> But what about the ones who know it is bad, acknowledge it is bad yet still go ahead and do it out of "bloody-mindedness" . I know such people well and have seen people do things that would make your hair stand on end. They don't give a toot about rationalizing it.
There are sociopaths. And there are mental hospitals.
> And your picture is wrong and certainly not what I presented. I believe people have the ability to be superior (through Asha) than animals or inferior (through druj) to animals. They are less evolved than us and we should be evolving further even if we have to do it artificially.
I disagree. People don't get inferior to animals when pursuing whatever is wrong, false and fake. What's the difference between us and other (!) animals, anyway? There are so many answers, and none of them is convincing enough these days to last more than 30 years. According to memetics, it's because we are much better imitators than them. That's probably true.
> As for your last rude comment about my choice of discussion being boring, WHY INVOLVE YOUSELF IN IT?
Oh, there's nothing wrong with your choice of discussion, dear Rory! It's just such an outdated picture that we should overcome in order to refine our understanding and come up with ever more sophisticated explanations. So I'll GRACIOUSLY ignore the rest of that passage. ;-)