Ethics vs Morality

Dear Yezad

Yes, good question, there definitely is. Ever since Baruch Spinoza defined morality as values emanating from a higher power (basically values of a THEOLOGICAL kind) and ethics as values emanating from causes and effects in reality without the involvement of a higher power (the work of PHILOSOPHERS rather than theologians) the two have been kept separate in the world of philosophy. Morality is now a discipline of theology and ethics is what philosophers are concerned with even if the latter category - just to confuse people - often refer to their work as the art of "moral philosophy".
Jurgen Habermas had made a sensible distinction between morality and ethics in a modern context: He defines morality as the opposition of good versus evil and ethics as the opposition of right versus wrong.
The irony in all this is that it means that the common translation of asha versus druj as good versus evil is outright wrong.
When Zarathushtra discusses asha versus druj he DOES define two ethical principles: Right versus wrong and not good versus evil. Or rather Asha means "constructive mentality" and Druj means "destructive mentality".
Spinoza was an ethicist and not a moralist. He wanted humanity to get rid of moralism and replace it with ethics once and for all. Modern philosophers agree. So should we.
Morality is a concern for the Abrahamic religions (The Ten Commandments in The Bible is moralism par excellence). However, religions of a philosohical inclination, like Zoroastrianism, Brahmanism, Buddhism and Taoism do not have morality, they are all ETHICAL belief systems.
In other words: Here is anothe rimportant reason why we do not want Zoroastrianism to be intertwined with the Abrahamic faiths. We don't even share basis for our values and valuations!

Ushta
Alexander

2009/12/3


Dear Dino,

I am a bit perplexed. Is there a distinction between morality and ethics?

Yezad





----- Original Message -----

From: Special Kain
To: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:31 PM
Subject: AW: [Ushta] Zoroastrianism and Stoicism



Dear Tomash,

Welcome to Ushta!!! :-)

We don't have asceticism in Zoroastrianism, so we don't share the Stoics' indifference towards existence, since we're ethically obliged to live our lives to the fullest and develop a constructive and co-creative attitude towards existence.

But, however, Stoicism and Zoroastrianism also have many things in common as you have so intelligently discovered: (1) we want to live in accordance with nature, the universe, Asha, (2) Zoroastrian philosophy is purely ethical and not the slightest bit moralistic, (3) Zarathushtra probably was one of the first rationalists in human history, (4) there are Zoroastrian pantheists and panentheists. The first three points sum up Stoic ethics perfectly, but there's this enjoyment of life and a constructive and proactive mentality in Zoroastrianism that can't be found in Stoic philosophy.

Rather than grow indifferent towards the world around us, we want to contribute creatively and constructively to civilization.

Ushta,
Dino

--- tomispev schrieb am Mi, 2.12.2009:


Von: tomispev
Betreff: [Ushta] Zoroastrianism and Stoicism
An: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. Dezember 2009, 15:34



Hello,

My name is Tomash, I'm from Serbia (I'm not a Serb however) and I have become very interested in Zoroastrianism after reading the book"Zarathoustra et la transfiguration du monde" by Paul du Breuil, in Serbian translation. Before being introduced to Zoroastrianism I read a lot about Stoicism and thought about becoming a Stoic.

What I am interesting is if someone could help me draw parallels between Zoroastrian and Stoic philosophy, their differences and commonalities. I know for example that Stoics are pantheists and are ruled by a maxim that one should try to live according to nature. They also practice great tolerance and compassion for others. Stoicism has a lot in common with Buddhism actually. It is very logical, a very rationalistic philosophy. But being quite impressed with Zoroastrianism, with Zarathushtra and his teaching, has got me torn between the two philosophies. I have read a Medieval philosopher Gemistus Pletho was also interested in both of them, but his understanding of Zoroastrianism might be just through the teachings of Plato, who he considered to be a reincarnation of Zarathushtra.

I do believe I do not understand much about Zoroastrianism, but I intend to learn as I have been so far.

Pozdrav,
Tomash

A letter by the Persian king Yadzgerd III???

Thanks for the input, Mickey, and you're probably right!
The letter is just too contemporary in tone to be credible. Even if it philosophically and culturally speaking sounds highly relevant. Any idea where this letter originated from?
Ushta
Alexander

2009/12/2 mickey patel

A famous Iranian historian has refuted the letter and has provided detailed reasons
I will email the paper if I find it soon.

The translations you see on youtube etc are more relevant from today's Iranian
perspective where the youth tends to see Islam as an Arab imposition and at
times are critical.

I personally dont think Yazdegird would write such a letter as the fact is
Arab conquest of Persia was a surprise - Persians understimated the Arab
army and the fact that Arabs were motivated etc.

Yazdegird had to flee Cteshipon immediately and after 5-6 years was killed.

Also the fact is Arabs had close contact with Persians and Arabs where in Persian
Sassanian army till the end and later diverted to the Arab side.

Khusrow Parviz had committed lot of errors and Persian Sassanian empire
would have collapsed anyway even if the Arabs hadnt invaded it

Also Islam was heavily influenced by Persian converts and they changed the face
of Islam - indicating close Persian-Arabic ties which had been in existance even
before Arab invasion.



--- On Wed, 2/12/09, Alexander Bard wrote:


From: Alexander Bard
Subject: Re: [Ushta] A letter by the Persian king Yadzgerd III
To: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 2 December, 2009, 4:52 AM



And here is the translation according to Google Translate if you prefer text:

The Islamic expansion was well known even before the Persian Sassanid empire does not stop. In the 30s of the 7th Century building. AD (about 634) which began to attack the Muslims on the Persian Empire. They called ended with the defeat of the Sassanid Persian Empire and was like. The Islamization of the Iranian people or the elimination of Zoroastrianism (the former Persian religion), however, took some Jahrhundete. Even in the 10th Century have witnessed Zoroastrian minorities and even in the 13th Century should have burned in Iran Zoroastrian bonfires.

The following is the contents of a letter, whose original is to be located in the Museum of London is being played. It is supposed to be a letter apparently from Grand King Yazdegerd III., The last Sassanidenherscher to the Caliph Omar Ibn al-Khattab was written. The letter points to the conclusion that Omar has asked the Grand King Persian convert to Islam. It contains the answer to this request.

In the name of Ahura-mazda, the creator of life and wisdom.

From the Shah of Shahs (King of Kings), Shah of Persia and Beyond, Shah of many Kingdoms, Shah of Aryans and non-Aryans, Shah of Persia and many other races as well as the Arabs, Shahanshah (Grand King of the Persian Empire Yazdegerd) III. Sassanid to Omar Ibn al-Khattab. Caliphate of Tazi (Tazi: So called by the Persians, the Arab invaders)

You write in your letter that you us to your God "Allah u Akbar want to convert." And because of your barbarity and ignorance, do you not know who we are and whom we worship. You demand that we follow your God and devotees (followers, admirers) of "Allah u Akbar will be." How strange that it innehabt the headquarters of the Arab caliphate where you're still so ignorant as any stray into the desert Arabs! Your admonished me to monotheistic faith. Ignorant man, for thousands of years we Aryans have been in this land of culture and art even monotheistic, and pray five times a day to the throne of the one God.

While we laid the foundations of charity, honesty and kindness in this world and the values of "good ideas", "good words" and "good deeds" were high, are you and your ancestors were desert wanderers who ate snakes and lizards, and their innocent girls have been buried alive. (Even then, they had the reputation of people who treat their wives badly !!!).

You Arabs have no appreciation for God's creatures! Their decapitated children of God, even prisoners, raped women, bury your women alive, attacks caravans, commits mass murder, abducted the women of other people and robs them of their property! Your hearts are hard as stone (made of stone). We despise all this evil that you do. How can you teach us God's way but when you commit such acts?

You said I will refrain from my fire prayers! We Persians see the Love of the Creator and the power of the inventor of light and sun and heat and fire. Light and warmth of the sun and fire, allowing us to see the light of truth and warmed our hearts to the Creator and our fellow human beings. It helps us to be kind to one another, it enlightens us and makes the flame from Mazda continue to live in our hearts. Our master is Ahuramazda, it is strange that people like you have just discovered him now so well and call him Allah u Akbar!

But we are not like you. We practice in the name of Ahuramazda compassion and love and goodness, righteousness, forgiveness and care for the dispossessed and unfortunate. We distribute the good of the world, we have spread our culture with respect for other cultures throughout the world for thousands of years, but you commit in the name of Allah u Akbar killings, creates misery and makes others suffer! Tell me honestly who is to blame for your misdeeds? Befielt Your God, the genocide, looting and destruction, or you who is doing such things in his name? Or both?

You who have spent your whole life in their brutality and barbarism geleutert now comes from the barren desert to teach. You teach with the sword and conquest, the worship of God, a nation that is civilized for thousands of years and is based on culture and science.

Tell us? With all of your hosts, the barbarity, murder and pillage which you have committed in the name of "Allah u Akbar," which have taught her this army of the Muslims? What knowledge have you taught the Muslims that their out there is to teach non-Muslims? What have you learned from your "Allah u Akbar", now that you want to force others to?

Today, the fate of my people turned. The armies were, Ahuramazada are the Arab armies of "Allah u Akbar" were defeated and forced by the sword a god named "Allah u Akbar 'convert and were forced to pray five times a day to him but now in Arabic because your "Allah u Akbar" only understands Arabic. I advise you to return to your lizard infested deserts. Do not let them go to our cities, the cruel barbarous Arabs who are like rabid animals. Look on the killing of my people, the looting and kidnapping our daughters in the name of your "Allah u Akbar". Look away from this evil crime! We Aryans are a gracious, friendly and well-meaning people. Wherever we go we are planting the seeds of goodness and righteousness and that is the reason why we have the ability to overlook the crimes and misdeeds of you Arabs.

Stay in your desert with your "Allah u Akbar" and not near to our cities disgusting is your faith and your animal's behavior.

Signed
Yazdegerd III.Sassanid.

The translation is taken from the following analogy, and I freely translated video clip from Youtube. The contents of this letter, and its existence should not be withheld from the public. It would be desirable if the historians and the media more interested in it and make their comments. Because if this letter really exists (of which I trust), then the public has a right to do more about it!

2009/12/1 Special Kain

OK, here's an English translation as found on YouTube:

http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=daDZyBSlicQ

--- Special Kain schrieb am Di, 1.12.2009:


Von: Special Kain
Betreff: [Ushta] A letter by the Persian king Yadzgerd III
An: Ushta@yahoogroups. com
Datum: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2009, 12:54


Dear friends,

Has anyone ever read the letter by Yadzgerd III to Omar Ibn al-Chattab in the face of the Islamization of the Persian empire? It is truly inspiring and also revealing about our beautiful religion! I only have a German translation:

http://www.dailytal k.ch/der- brief-des- persischen- grosskonigs- yazdegerds- iii/#more- 3073

Ushta, Dino

Renate Kreile and the Iranian Youth

Renate Kreile's work sounds endlessly FASCINATING!!!
Except for my current obsession with quantum physics, my fascination with Iranian youth today is my greatest interest of all. There are now at least 70,000 bloggers in Iran but the number is growing immensely fast.
All we need to do is to present them with "Iranian Philosophy" as the alternative...
Ushta
Alexander

2009/12/2 Special Kain

;-))

No, I meant that Kreile seems to have made a very good and decent job. Unfortunately, I couldn't find English or Swedish translations of her research yet.

--- Alexander Bard schrieb am Mi, 2.12.2009:


Von: Alexander Bard
Betreff: Re: [Ushta] Nasrin Alavi and the Iranian blogosphere
An: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. Dezember 2009, 16:02



Wtach our for Renate Kreile? Like if she is dangerous? Or like if she is rather good?
Sounds interesting. ..My TV show appearance the other day was of course directed directly towards Iranian and Kurdish youth.
Ushta
Alexander

2009/12/2 Special Kain



Dear friends,

Here's an interview with Nasrin Alavi who conducted research on the Iranian blogosphere:

http://globalvoices online.org/ 2006/03/11/ interview- with-nasrin- alavi/


And please watch out for Renate Kreile who conducted research on Iranian youths who are slowly abandoning Islam in favor of both Zoroastrianism and Sufism.

Ushta, Dino

Zoroastrianism and Stoicism

Hi Tomash

Dino is correct! The main difference between Zoroastrian philosophy and Stoic philosophy is that we take a positive approach towards existence as our starting point. Not so much as an emotion but rather as an ethical imperative. You can compare this if you like with Nietzsche's motto "Amor Fati" (Nietzsche loved the Stoics). The world is sacred to us, the world in itself carries no value to the Stoics. In this the Stoics have the same difference from Zoroastrianism as Brahmanism in India (the Indian Stoics, the majority of Indian yogi are Brahmanists) who also see no intrinsic value to existence, which we do.
But there is more to this issue: Stoicism has its ROOTS in Iranian philosophy. Whereas Plato had his starting point in the Egyptian worldview, the Stoics, as opposed to Plato, took their main inspiration from the Persians, who practiced philosophy at least 1,500 years before the Greeks.
I would recommend that you call yourself BOTH a Zoroastrian and a Stoic for now. I'm personally a Zoroastrian, as a philosophical origin, but I'm also a Spinozist and a Nietzschean, which is perfectly compatible with Zoroastrianism, as I believe Stoicism is too.

Ushta
Alexander


2009/12/2 Special Kain

Dear Tomash,

Welcome to Ushta!!! :-)

We don't have asceticism in Zoroastrianism, so we don't share the Stoics' indifference towards existence, since we're ethically obliged to live our lives to the fullest and develop a constructive and co-creative attitude towards existence.

But, however, Stoicism and Zoroastrianism also have many things in common as you have so intelligently discovered: (1) we want to live in accordance with nature, the universe, Asha, (2) Zoroastrian philosophy is purely ethical and not the slightest bit moralistic, (3) Zarathushtra probably was one of the first rationalists in human history, (4) there are Zoroastrian pantheists and panentheists. The first three points sum up Stoic ethics perfectly, but there's this enjoyment of life and a constructive and proactive mentality in Zoroastrianism that can't be found in Stoic philosophy.

Rather than grow indifferent towards the world around us, we want to contribute creatively and constructively to civilization.

Ushta,
Dino

--- tomispev schrieb am Mi, 2.12.2009:


Von: tomispev
Betreff: [Ushta] Zoroastrianism and Stoicism
An: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. Dezember 2009, 15:34



Hello,

My name is Tomash, I'm from Serbia (I'm not a Serb however) and I have become very interested in Zoroastrianism after reading the book"Zarathoustra et la transfiguration du monde" by Paul du Breuil, in Serbian translation. Before being introduced to Zoroastrianism I read a lot about Stoicism and thought about becoming a Stoic.

What I am interesting is if someone could help me draw parallels between Zoroastrian and Stoic philosophy, their differences and commonalities. I know for example that Stoics are pantheists and are ruled by a maxim that one should try to live according to nature. They also practice great tolerance and compassion for others. Stoicism has a lot in common with Buddhism actually. It is very logical, a very rationalistic philosophy. But being quite impressed with Zoroastrianism, with Zarathushtra and his teaching, has got me torn between the two philosophies. I have read a Medieval philosopher Gemistus Pletho was also interested in both of them, but his understanding of Zoroastrianism might be just through the teachings of Plato, who he considered to be a reincarnation of Zarathushtra.

I do believe I do not understand much about Zoroastrianism, but I intend to learn as I have been so far.

Pozdrav,
Tomash

Iranian festivities

Excellent, Ardeshir and Bahman!
Many thanks for this valuable information.
Iranian festivities make so much sense. All people should celebrate the origin of the making of fire, because that is where civilization first began. The human taming of the forces of nature for the good of all mankind.
Ushta
Alexander

2009/12/2 ardeshir farhmand


Hi Everyone,

As bahman wrote, traditionally "sadeh" or festival of fire has been associated with number 100.

However, in Avestan language "sared" or "cared" means simply "cold," "cold season."
The farsi word "sal," "cal" or "year" comes from the same root, meaning winter.

the assocaition of "year" with "winter" does not end here in avesta. the word "yar" also means "year" or cold.

The fifth Gahmbar, celebrated around january third is called "maid yar-im"
or "the middle of winter or cold season" celebration and festivity, hence making huge bonfires.

Ardeshir

On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Bahman Noruziaan wrote:



Hello Alexander,

It is the "Sadeh" festival that is celebrated 50 days (or 50 days and 50 nights) before Novruz. "Sad" means (100) in Persian. Moreover, Sadeh is on the 100th day after the beginning of the long winter in "Iranvij", the original home of Iranian Peoples (the Aryans) which according to tradition had 7 months of summer and 5 months of winter.
"Sadeh" is celebrated in memory of the discovery of making fire by man (Hushang the Pishdadian Ruler of the Iranian Peoples).
AzragAn is one of the 12 monthly celebrations in Zoroastrian Tradition when the name of the day (Azar in this case) and name of the month (Azar again in this case) is the same.
Azragan is celebrated in honour of fire.

Regards
Bahman

To: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
From: bardissimo@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:21:21 +0100
Subject: [Ushta] Azar Ruz, Azar Mah, Azargan


Wonderful pictures, thank you!!!
I know Azargan is 100 days prior to Nowruz, but can you tell us more about this holiday?
Ushta
Alexander

2009/11/29 Bahman Noruziaan



Zartoshis in Iran celebrated Azar ruz from Azar Mah (Azargan)

Here are a few photo essays from Iran

In Ahrestab
http://www.berasad.com/fa/content/view/2856/43/
In Shiraz
http://www.berasad.com/fa/content/view/2843/50/
Ghasem Abad
http://www.berasad.com/fa/content/view/2841/48/
Ahvaz
http://www.berasad.com/fa/content/view/2840/50/
Tehran
http://www.berasad.com/fa/content/view/2839/48/

Trita Parsi has won this year's University of Louisville Grawemeyer Award for Ideas Improving World Order!!!

Dear Friends

We are all very proud that our dear friend Trita Parsi has won this year's University of Louisville Grawemeyer Award for Ideas Improving World Order!!!
http://grawemeyer.org/worldorder/copy_of_current-winner.html
The news is headline news in Sweden at the moment! Amazing!!!

Warmest congratulations, Trita!
Alexander

Splitting time from space: Petr Horava's new quantum gravity theory

Yes, Petr Horava is extremely controversial but he is definitely onto something here, Horava is at Berkley in California, he has been one of the world's leading string theorists for the past 15 years, best friends with Ed Witten!
Horava's theory would actually solve the twin mysteries of dark energy and dark matter in one sweet sweep.
These phenomena would not exist according to his model. It would be his "Horava gravitons" that play tricks with us and make The Universe expand.
Please note that his model kills the notion of "the big bang" also as "the birth of the universe".
Instead the big bang would be a "big bounce". And there would no longer be any need for any creator!
Because according to Horava, just liked Einstein believed, the universe would always have existed!
I guess our dear Mehran would not be a big fan of Petr Horava then. ;-)
Ushta
Alexander/deeply into quantum physics at the moment, but cosmology is great fun too...

2009/12/1 Special Kain


Dear friends,

Here's an article on Czech string theorist Petr Horava's brilliantly fascinating quantum gravity theory that's splitting time from space and challenging Albert Einstein's now seemingly outdated quantum mechanics.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=splitting-time-from-space

We're living in a dancing universe, indeed!

Ushta,
Dino