måndag 1 februari 2010

Zoroastrianism vs Judaism

Dear Martin

Please note that the concept of sin does not exist in Zoroastrianism.
It is basically an ethical philosophy and not a moralizing religion like the Abrahamic religions.
We do not have any commandments but merely believe that our actions become one with ourselves.
THIS is why it is important to us what we think, say and how we act.
But there are no preset rules in Zoroastrianism. Not judgment day towards which we are reponsible for our actions. We are only responsible to ourselves and our fellow human beings.


2010/1/31 Martin Grossmann

That is going pretty well for the beginning ;)

Well to your statements Bahman. Thank your for explanation of Dualism and also wanted to thank the previous poster but cant remember his name ;)

Now to the jewish and refering to the things you mentioned.

In Judaism a physical entity as satan as a special angel or opposing force doesnt exist. In the hebrew bible, the world "ha-satan" is meaning "the opposing / accusing one" and refers mostly to various angels, that are taking the position of a prosecutor towards humankind and its evil deeds. But still as angels, they are controlled by g-d and have no free will. They are mostly send by g-d to test mens loyalty to his ehtical and moral principles.
So basically ha-Satan is not an equal opposing negative force, but certainly pre-existant and still part of this eternal and universal balance.
A interesting as it is, in the story of creation, the serpent is never mentioned to be ha-Satan (and certainly ha-Satan mentioned in the other scripture has never had a physical appearance), but is seen to be figurative or a symbol for the sin, that persuaded men to break the covenant. That is why in Gen. 3:15, the Almighty is talking directly to the serpent and cursing it (another viewpoint, why not ha-Satan can be meant since its not under g-ds control and so resulting out of free will of humankind).

The christian interpretation later stated a diffuse interpretation, that resulted in following Christianity a dualis approach although it is based on Judaism, that doesnt have one in the methaphysical sense (meaning a bad and good force, but that evil results out of the will of men to do bad things)

Now to the second point. Certainly if man was created by g-d and he had full control over his creation and created a sinful creature, then that would mean he has to be sinful too. Now that is partly correct. Since everything else that exists besides men is under his control as an eternal and universal deity, everything else in in balance and so you cant contribute to it a certain characteristic.

As the saying goes....g-d is everything and nothing.
The reason why men, as his greatest creation, is sinful derives from the fact, that we have been given free will. If we wouldnt have free will, we wouldnt need a covenant or a savior. With free will, we expand over natural and ethical limits.

But you are right. Still he would have to be existant in men since he is a part of them as its creator. But men is not born bad or good, is it ? We become sinful throughout our lives by influences from our surrounding.

Now that was the jewish viewpoint and hope I could clear some stuff up. Thank you for the great interest and that is why I joined this channel ;)

Have a nice day.

2010/1/31 Bahman Noruziaan

Hello Marcin,

The Dualism of the Gathas refers to after creation of the world as we see. Dualism in my understanding, appears to have been the necessity of the world to come about, based on Zarathushtra's vision.
The dual entities were the primal building blocks of this universe. They however, in human's mind, are interpreted as better and the worst. They manifest themselves in our being (thoughts, words and deeds as good and bad). There is no dualism in the nature of Ahura Mazda, but its material creation.

Referring to what wyou wrote as:

"The creation of men (and the existence of evil deeds and actions) challenged this balance and so evil became existent."
I am not sure how Judaism then explains the rebellion of Satan against Yehwa's will and its act of deceiving Eve and as a result Adam? Was not this act, an evil act, a sin, which is attributed to Satan that pre-existed man?

Also you wrote:
"The Creation of Men changed this balance and Sin (as human trademark) is seen in Judaism as the opposing force towards the balance made by this universal deity."
Now, if man which is a creation of Yehowa was capable of Sin, then was not it embedded in the blueprint of its making, which was planned by Yehowa?
So, how the deity created a potentially sinful creation, if itself is devoid of any sin?


To: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
From: marcin.grossman@googlemail.com
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 03:03:11 +0100

Dear Friends,

I am new to this group and interested in the zoroastrian religious ( or philosophical ) views.

Please correct any of my thinking processes, since I am new to this.
As I understand, the Zoroastrains believe in Dualism as existent in a positive and negative entity. If that is so, then I would like to understand following. If we say that dualism (for example interaction of a good divine entity and bad divine entity) is something that surrounds any particle in the universe, then it should have existed already before the creation of men. But since nature or universe itself is always in balance, there is never really an out-of-balance state, meaning that you logically cant call either of the two forces positive or negative. Evil doesnt exist in nature or the universe since there is no cause to it. The creation of men (and the existence of evil deeds and actions) challenged this ballance and so evil became existent.

I am jewish and judaism is not based on dualism. As explained, I see no confirmation in the existence of two opposing forces if a. everything is in balance and b. therefore you cannot attribute them (by saying this one is positive and this one is negative).

Following this statements, I support the idea that if the divine deity exists, it should logically be one spiritual and universal deity with no physical or philosophical trait (no dualism).

The Creation of Men changed this balance and Sin (as human trademark) is seen in Judaism as the opposing force towards the balance made by this universal deity. So maybe I would call it dualism between balance and inbalance, but between Humankind and its creator. And since this creator existed before humankind, you cant attribute any trademarks to him and so dualism cant exist. (or is always in balance what makes it unnecessary to distinguish between these forces)

I see no logical signal for the existence of a negative entity ( as the devil or bad spirit ) equal to g-d.

Could you explain to me, how Zoroastrians are viewing this situation and what kind of role men is playing in it ?

Thank your for your time and reading.

Best regards,


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