1. There is not a single trace of any planning going on in the universe. This is why planning is not an alternative.
2. Wisdom is a quality ascribed to something. Science sees no wisdom in anything. I CHOOSE to make this ascription, this is what my religion is all about, it's about my self-identity, and my choices. As Zarathushtra says our RELIGION should be. He was the first existentialist and the first ethicist in history. The world is Ahura whether we like it or not, we then ASCRIBE Mazda to this Ahura, which is why we celebrate not Ahura but Ahura Mazda.
3. The second law of thermodynamics works within a CLOSED universe. But hardly any physicists anymore believe there is only one universe. Far more likely is that universes come and go, or rather expand out from one another into new universes. What is important however to us as Zoroastrians is that there is something rather than nothing, so even if this something is in a state of entropy, it is still there and it is not a nothing.
2009/7/21 Georgios Papadopoulos
You praise the universe for its self-organization, so you like to call it wise.
Is there a scientific basis of your belief? Let me remind you of some facts:
The second law of thermodynamics states that entropy of an isolated system (is our universe isolated?) increases. This is an irreversible process and practically means that the total amount of disorder in the universe is increasing. This is extremely important as this law shows the direction of time. An ice cube melts but water never becomes ice cube on its own! That's why we cannot go back in time, since we would break this law.
Copying from wikipedia: It currently seems that the ultimate reason for a preferred time direction is that the universe as a whole was in a highly ordered state at its very early stages, shortly after the big bang.
Life "contradicts" this law by decreasing its entropy. This differentiate life from other forms of matter organization. Of course there is no real contradiction as living organisms are not isolated systems, so the total entropy or the universe still increases.
We should be more careful on these subjects.
I also cannot understand why Ahura/God cannot be both wise & planner. These are human concepts/words that do not necessarily apply to Ahura/God. A God is not limited to human ideas, so please be careful when applying human attributes to God.
--- In Ushta@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Bard
> Dear Mehran
> Do you know what your logical mistake is?
> Your logical mistake is that you mix up two things that don't necessarily
> belong together: Wisdom and planning.
> So actually it is the other way around from what you are saying all the
> If God or Ahira is WISE, then God or Ahura does NOT need to plan.
> The reason why we humans have to plan so many things is because we are NOT
> wise enough to do anything without PLANNING in advance.
> But a God who is wise enough does not need to plan.
> So this is why The Universe works the way it is: It is FULL of brilliant and
> WISE self-organization. As a matter of fact, The Universe is one big
> self-organization, which is just amazing!!!
> But precisely because Ahura is so wise, Ahura does not need to plan. Ahura
> is not Ahura Planner, Ahura is Ahura Mazda.
> The are no construction meetings whatsoever in The Gathas. It was never
> needed. Only humans need to plan.
> It seems you only have very small thoughts about Ahura. I understand Ahura
> to be much bigger than just a stonesmith.
> 2009/7/21 MoobedyAr Mehran Gheibi
> > Dear Maneck and Alexander
> > dorood
> > Either you believe in self-organized nature, or self-made creator, or any
> > other thing, the problem will remain un-answered, for ever.
> > *The important matter is: there is a very wisely planed/organized
> > Universe. Any such organization has no way except for being made by a wise,
> > able and kind planner, organizer and maker. Such well organized thing may
> > not be made accidentally at all.*