Zoroastrianism and Zurvanism

Correct! The translation "the first beginning" is clearly sloppy. It's tautological. "First" and "beginning" are synonyms. But Iris is an excellent reader to have found this passage and realised its contradiction. However, this translation does not indicate anything about Zoroastrian beliefs. More important is to stress - as Iris correclty has observed - that the concept of Zurvan already among early Zoroastrians shows that they were fully aware of the importance of time and that an existence outside of time was both feasible and possibly necessary to contemplate. Those who even went off to worship time as the true divinity were called Zurvanites (Zurvanism). Although many of us (including Parviz and myself) are very inspired by Zurvanism, it has historically not survived as its own faith.
Ushta
Alexander

2009/5/27 Special Kain



Dear Iris,

Translations always carry the translator's bias. That's why it is so important to consult different translations of the Gathas and, after all, discuss them with different Zoroastrians. And since it is a compilation of poems, we shouldn't read the Gathas literally. So it makes more sense to catch the SPIRIT expressed in the Gathas, rather than pondering on every single word.

Ushta,
Dino


--- irisfilpot schrieb am Mi, 27.5.2009:


Von: irisfilpot
Betreff: [Ushta] Re: Mazda Carpenter, Me Chair! - or not?
An: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Mittwoch, 27. Mai 2009, 5:20

Hi

yasna 31 7 "He who in the first beginning... ." then 31-11"....Thou didst first create us having bodies and spiritual..

This seems to indicate to me that there are many beginnings ( at least more than one) and it seems to me that it indicates that creation wasn't all at once. Or isn't all at once. It is seems open to a possibilty that the "creator" was already there before the "first beginning.' (He used his intelligence to first create.)
Taking the Gathas by themselves, I am seeing a range of possibilities as to meaning.

>>And in Zoroastrian history, the focus on "Zurvan" s unique. The idea that time created everything, in other words, that the current world came into existence with the existence of time.<<

Interesting. I haven't read anything about Zurvan yet. The idea that "time created everything". Yes, that seems to be pointing to "It You" sort of thinking. When someone is in that timelessness there is no you or I or it or separations. There isn't birth or death so it is essentially immortality "Time created every thing." Intellect, thought in words, is very time conscious and dependant on time. Our identified selves are dependant on time. Very good description of what isn't being in timelessness.


--- In Ushta@yahoogroups. com, Alexander Bard wrote:
>
> Where does the Gathas indicate this? Could you provide an example?
> Ushta
> Alexander
>
> 2009/5/26 irisfilpot
>
> >
> > The Gathas seem to indicate multiple creations.