What is important however for the history of religions is to place Zarathushtra - correctly! - before Akhnaten in Egypt (1,300BCE) and Moses (1,000BCE). So regardless of WHAT we believe Ahura Mazda is, we can agree that Zoroastrianism is the original monotheistic religion. Which it is. This makes it less important as to whether Zarathushtra lived 3,500, 3,700 or even more than 4,000 years ago. It is the teleology that should be our main concern. This since the reason why Christian historians tried to place Zarathushtra at around 700BCE (right before Cyrus The Great) was of course to deliberately place Zarathushtra AFTER the Egyptian monotheists and Moses. This should be pointe dout as CLEARLY incorrect and a falsification of history.
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Dear Zaneta, Ushta
About 2 years ago, some RussiansArcheologist found a burial site in Kazakstan where they found buried horses and a buried rudimentary chariot They dated it to 2000 BC and beyond so , do not take 1500 BC as a date set in stone.
----- Original Message -----
From: Zaneta Garratt
To: Sam Kerr ; email@example.com ; firstname.lastname@example.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 1:48 AM
Subject: RE: [zoroastrians] Re: [Ushta] Reply to Arman re The Date and Place of Zaratu...
hi Jehan, Ali Jafarey, Parviz & Dina,and Sam Kerr,
I would like to write what Mary Boyce says on the subject of Zarathustra's origins-in Zoroastrianism,its Antiquity and Constant Vigour-p.33- 35, 44-45- she feels that Zarathustra and his people lived on the Asian Steppes during the Nomadic period before 900-1000B.C.She consulted Russian archeologists and the people who lived there had horses and light chariots and therefore it cannot be before 1500B.C.-horses and chariots are named in the Gathas,often as metaphores. Also the names mentioned in the Gathas, many end with -aspa which means horse- Also there is no class system in the names of these people and not in the Gatha names or society either. The people mostly kept animals and did a little farming also-maybe about 1100 B.C. or even before this the East Iranian people moved South-so she believed that Zarathustra lived on the Central Asian Steepes between 1500 and 1200 B.C.on the Central Asian Steppes before his people migrated South-she feels that the picture of the society in the Gathas is like the society of the people in the second half of the second millenium B.C. North of the Jaxantes River- which is now modern Kazakhstan- they have found horse drawn chariots from the graves, these people were farmers who mostly had animals and they lived in closely packed large houses, Best wishes from Zaneta
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:39:46 +1000
Subject: [zoroastrians] Re: [Ushta] Reply to Arman re The Date and Place of Zaratu...
Hello Jehan, Ali Jafarey, Parviz & Dina,
Your contribution to this rather elusive subject matter makes rational reading. I could not resist coming in. Please bear with me.
According to my humble searches (which are not looked into in details and discussed often) the most telling historical data pointing to the Age of Zarathushtra is around 1,700 to 1,750 BCE : -
Here is a short summary of 2 main reasons why my inquiries lead me to believe in this date. It is, I think, worth looking into.
1) The 'Book of Genesis' (composed posterior to 1,500 BCE to 1, 600 BCE) in the Old Testament of the Holy Bible talks of the Maadaai people [Avestan- the Maa(n)dan people. The (n) is nasal] meaning "Medes" in Greek. In the Old Testament as the name of a son of Japheth. He was the ancestor of the Medes, 'an ancient people related to the Persians. They spoke a different tongue.'
"Philology" - the science of the structure and development of language, has discovered three parent groups of languages and peoples (by the authors of the old Testament: Aryan, Semitic, and Turanian -- Japheth, Shem, and Ham. Family traits are evident in the languages of the different groups as language determines or reflects the way men conceive of things. The Japhetic or the Indo-Europeans have maintained the evident relationships in their particular family of languages.
Remember that when a group of people migrate they (initially try to but) don't always accumulate at the same place.
People in various areas called themselves by the name of the man who was their common ancestor. They also called their land, and often their major city and major river, by his name wherever they settled (Navsari, New York, Newfound land, Nova Scotia.....etc). They intermarried and grew in population (with the general exception being our kind on the Subcontinent, since those who did were ostracized).
Those who settled in Palestine (Philistine of the times) rubbed shoulders with the Hebrews and some intermarried. It was a long time before they became consolidated enough to think of the incorrigible Avestan trait - 'Conquest'. Often they went back 'home' to their Avestan lands and returned with new ideas, arms and fresh concepts of life compared to their ''olde' Avestan ways' of entrepreneurship just as the post-war British migrants in Australia did in the 1950s and 1960s. In Australia it was easy - the British migrants paid only 10 Pound Sterling to travel back and forth (the Australian Government subsidized the remaining). My Secretary was one of them. They were even provided with a place in a 'migrant hostel until they were well settled.
As the Maadaai people gained confidence and studied the flaws in the local Semitic culture and its structure they began to think of 'taking over' like the British India Company did (thru' local intrigue and use of mercenaries and deception + return to Britain and import of arms, warriors and know-how.)
Here is a short genealogy tree which is a vital part of the actual text from my Book 'Cyrus the Great - Celestial Sovereign' (with a few changes)
Maa(n)da (Gk: Media):
Groups of the 'Madai' people have been recorded posterior to 1500 BCE in the 'Book of Genesis'. They have reappeared many times in history. It took a very long time for them to regroup and build up enough strength to capture strategic territory to form an Empire of their own.
The exact chronology of their movements is unclear due to constant invasions for supremacy and change of hands of the 'Gateway'- the Capital city, Hagbatana
After centuries of pitfalls and downsides of his migrating ancestors the conqueror/founder of Maa(n)da (Gk: Media) as an Empire; Dai-Aukku 747 BCE (Gk: Diocese) made Hagbatana (later Parthian & Sassanian -Ekbatana; present City of Hamadan) independent of Assyria. He fought the Battle of Harhar against Sharrukin (Sargon II) in 702 BCE to capture this vital Port. Documents show that it was Dai-Aukku who established the 'Guild of Maghavans in Hagbatana'. They travelled long distances to propagate the religion of Zarathushtra as was done at the time of and after Zarathushtra (in the olde Avestan lands) This fact that this occurred is clearly mentioned in The Avesta. The Maa(n)dan people were thus the first to establish a Zarathushti dynasty and propagate the Faith, its culture and establish a power to reckon with outside their homeland.
Then, again this was followed by years of uncertain documentation
Dai-Aukku was captured in 715 BCE and deported to Asshur (Gk: Assyria) by Sharrukin (Sargon II)
Son Fra-Vartish (Gk: Phraortes) 685-634 BCE died in Battle against Asshur Ban Apal in 634 BCE
Son Kai-Khsharish (Gk: Cyaxeres) 634-584 BCE fought Battle of the Broad Plains, Katpatuka 585 BCE against Allyattes of Saparda which was stopped by a total Eclipse of the Sun, ending in the Treaty of Sardis.
Son Ishtu-Vegu (Gk: Astyages) 584-558 BCE married Mandana (Gk: Mandane) daughter of Allyattes and sister of Croesus of Saparda (Gk: Lydia).
Conquest of Hagbatana and Manda 558 BCE by Cyrus the Great. Ishtu-Vegu died in captivity 553 BCE.
2) The Gathic/Avestan concept of Family name-titles - Horse title - 'aspa' and later, the two-humped Bactrian Camel title 'ushtra'. The latter title came into vogue (as history, later Pahlavi texts and our Avesta shows) around 1,700 BCE. Pourush-aspa, the father of Zarathushtra gave the name title to the prophet as well as to Zarathushtra's two elder brothers thus: - 1. Rata-ushtra 2. Rangha-ushtra & 3. Zarath-ushtra. Immediately, the meaning of 'Zarath' becomes an enigma. The olde referral to the Gathic/Avestan word 'Zarenu' as gold may become not applicable (or does it still remain so).