Two worlds in The Gathas?

Dear Mehran, Ronald, Dino

What Zarathushtra is saying is that there APPEARS to be two planes of existence.
This is of course true, this is how we PERCIEVE the world!!! Nobody ever questioned that. We perceived a inside, a mental state, and an outside, the world surroudning us (ncludig our own bodies as a phenomenon).
Zarathushtra does not however say that THIS is the way the world IS. Not anywhere!
If you claim this, then you are trying to turn Zarathushtra into a scientist smarter and more modern than Albert Einstein and you are making a mockery of the Zoroastrian religion.
It is also blatantly unfair to Zarathushtra. Zarathushtra did NOT claim to be a scientist who made scientific claims. He merely put forward how existence is percieved by us SO THAT WE COULD MAKE THE RIGHT and ethical CHOICES for ourselves. THIS was his sole concern.
Never did Zarathushtra set out any other concerns for him to write The Gathas in the first place. Or did you run across any scientific manifesto by Zarathushtra outside of The Gathas???

Ushta
Alexander

2008/12/29 ztheist
- Dölj citerad text -



Ushta Mobedyar

That there are two planes of existence, according to the Gathas and
thus to Zarathushtra, is confirmed not only by 28.2 but its all over
the Gathas. There is Vahishta Manah, Garo Demana , and there;s Drugo
Demana. The Chinvat is pictured as a bridge that crosses over to
another plane of existence, and in fact the other existence is called
the Better Existence . Any one who insists in questioning this or
calling it an interpretation is either ignorant of the Gathas or is
deluded or its just trying to make their own religion and misusing
the Gathas in an attempt to support it.

To then claim, as is being claimed here, that there is no dualism and
that there's is no Creator or Supreme being and trying to use the
name of Zarathushtra and his religion as supporting this, is just
more delusion. There is a superior being in the Gathas. He shows all
the qualities of a being and He is addresed with a name that was used
for gods since time immemorial by the Aryans : Ahura

There is absolutely zero evidence that Zarathushtra ever thought or
even considered that there is no god or that Mazda Ahura is not God.

Now it COULD be there is no god , and it COULD be that reality is
Monist , BUT Zarathushtra's Gathas DO NOT support such a theory, no
matter how much the deluded may want to twist the Gathas to make them
fit their delusion.

Incidentally, that is why for the better part of several years, they
actually refuse to give any verse or stanza in the Gathas to support
their delusion AND even go as far as refusing to accept arguments
from what the Gathas say. This is because : A) They know that the
Gathas do not support their delusion and B)Because they know that
their doctrine is not Zarathushtrian but they still want to
appropriate the name.

Yet incredible they lecture others on what is a zarathushtrian and
even send them to other religions and in the very next breath they
claim to be tolerant and accuse those who oppose their delusion opf
being intolerant. I am afraid they all are products of Aka Manah, of
such, Zarathushtra said that " ... they could not choose aright
because delusion came over them ... "

Ushta te
Ron

--- In Ushta@yahoogroups.com, MoobedyAr Mehran Gheibi
wrote:
>
> Dear Dino
> dorood
> 1- Would you please read the verse 28-2 of gAthA? In this verse, ye
wAo mazdA ahoorA (=O' wise maker/creator), paiirii jasAii vohoo
managhA (= I come to you with good mind), maiibyo (=to me) dAvooii
(=give) ahwAo (= in two existances/lifes/beings), astvatas
(=material) chA (=and) heyat (=also) chA (=and) mananghA (=
spiritual / of mind), AyaptA (= rewards) ashAt chit hachA (=
upon/inacordance with ashA), yAiish (=that with it) rapento (= to
faitful believer/ the person who relys on you) da'idit (= you give)
kho'Athra (= good breath = in Persian it does mean good serenity.
When we do a job well, we breath a good breath and say: oh yes it is
finished and we do are best. This is called good breath = kho'Athra)
> 2- The thing that you mentioned is due to Semitic/AbrAhAmic point
of view. jehovah creats world and then Adam, just like hiself, to
rule it. He say Adam not to eat the fruit of two trees. Tree of
knowledge, and tree of life. After some other stories, Adam and Eve
eat the fruit of knowledge ...... When jehovah found out that Adam
and Eve have eaten the fruit of knowledge, he told himself that Adam
would eat the fruit of life and become immortal. jehovah
thinks:" Adam is just the same as me and if eats the fruit of life
will counterpart me and it will be very bad." Therefore he dispossess
Adam and Eve from the Eden, throws out them to earth to punish them
for this first sin and however to prevent them from eating the fruit
of life and becoming immortal..... In this point of view material
world is bad and material life is punishment.
> In gAthA there is not the same, therefore world = material life is
not bad and punishment. ahoorA mazdA creats world and human being to
live happily and grow up toward ahoorA mazdA and .... In verse 28-1
you find out that ahoorA mazdA is the most superior entity in
spirituality = spiritual life. In other verses you will find that
human being should go forward and become more refresh until unity
with ahoorA mazdA. Thus I as other parts of avestA interpret it as
superiority of spiritual life on material life, just as the
superiority of driver on a car.
> 3- A material human being is just a robot. Nowadays scientists with
so many knowledge and instruments have spent so many time and money
to creat such nowadays robots that are not comparable with an insect,
yet. Well, who/ which entity with how much knowledge, with how many
instrument, spending how much time and .... has planned and created
this robot that is called human being? If you say: "... no there is
not a plan..." I will say: "Any scientist has proved the plan" What
is a plan? It is a strategy for making a thing or reaching a result
through a proper set of initial elements by a proper process... If
You observe correctly, you will find these elements and processes all
over you, from your hair to your foot. A plan neds a knowledge
planer, and working the process needs an able processor.
>
>
> Nik-o shAd bAshid
> KhodA negahdAr,
> MoobedyAr MehrAn Gheibi.
> Kerman_Iran
>
>
>
> --- On Sun, 12/28/08, Special Kain wrote:
>
> From: Special Kain

> Subject: [Ushta] Two worlds in the Gathas?
> To: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 10:55 PM
>
>
> Dear Mehran,
>
> Are there really two essentially different worlds mentioned in the
Gathas? Are they meant as objective facts or is that part up to
interpretation? That doesn't bother me at all, because there's a much
more important message: Both worlds are equally good. There's no
hierarchy between any worlds, no astral theme parks being allegedly
superior to a shady material world that's just bad, bad, bad. Whether
there are any two essentially different worlds is not important here.
What's really intriguing is the essentially positive attitude: Astral
theme parks are not better than this material world with its physical
objects, flora and fauna, neural networks etc.
>
> Ushta,
> Dino