Asha vs Druj (Relevance vs Irrelevance)

Sure thing!
The interesting opposition is not "truth" vs "lie" but rather "relevance" vs "irrelevance".
What we need to do philosophically is to connect "relevance" with "constructivity" and as its opposite couple connect "irrelevance" with "destructivity". Then we have better and more relevant (!) translations of "asha" and "druj" too.
Ushta
Alexander

2011/7/23 Special Kain

I think we're all pop cultural nomads today in the sense that we have joined different subcultures at different times. We discover something else and we choose to adopt a new set of identities that are in tune with these newly discovered subcultures. Or we co-create something new with like-minded people either online or in the so-called "real world". I have always been part of different subcultures both online and offline. Both online and offline subcultures had a strong impact on who I have become.

Frankly, I don't see any state of mind as more natural than another. This is where I agree with John Dewey and Richard Rorty. Zoroastrian ontology is not "truer" than any other ontology. It's just a vocabulary that creates more possibilities than restraints. And that's why I have chosen to fully identify with Zoroastrian philosophy!

Ushta,
Dino

--- Alexander Bard schrieb am Fr, 22.7.2011:

And there is a lot of evidence that the situation was similar in China and India. It is Taoism which predates Confucianism and not the other way round. Just as Brahmanism is older than Hinduism. As Gilles Deleuze has pointed out: Process philosophy is natural for nomads. It was only with the introduction of feudal ownership of agriculture and permanent settlements that static models were required and popularized. Modern technology is reintroducing us to nomadism again, we are becoming technological primitivists, as Brian Eno has pointed out. Time to rediscover nomad thought then!

Ushta
Alexander

2011/7/22 Special Kain

I think there was process philosophy only before the Greeks got obsessed with static models. I guess Plato was deeply frustrated with Athenian society. His philosophy was a neurotic expression of his very own escapism!
It took such travellers as early American settlers, Spinoza and Nietzsche to reintroduce process philosophy into western thought. ;-)

Nomadism vs Absolutism

And there is a lot of evidence that the situation was similar in China and India. It is Taoism which predates Confucianism and not the other way round. Just as Brahmanism is older than Hinduism. As Gilles Deleuze has pointed out: Process philosophy is natural for nomads. It was only with the introduction of feudal ownership of agriculture and permanent settlements that static models were required and popularized. Modern technology is reintroducing us to nomadism again, we are becoming technological primitivists, as Brian Eno has pointed out. Time to rediscover nomad thought then!
Ushta
Alexander

2011/7/22 Special Kain

I think there was process philosophy only before the Greeks got obsessed with static models. I guess Plato was deeply frustrated with Athenian society. His philosophy was a neurotic expression of his very own escapism!
It took such travellers as early American settlers, Spinoza and Nietzsche to reintroduce process philosophy into western thought. ;-)

Zoroastrianism for the internet age - patience patience patience...

I agree wholeheartedly.
The thing though is that these things take time, lots of time, sometimes spanning over several generations.
But I agree, seen in this patient light, Mazdayasna can both be perceived as all of process philosophy in summary, but also as an anchor into the early history of civilization. Process thinking and not absolutism is the natural state of mind to humans. It is the beliefs in objective truth and dualism which is the historical deviation.
Ushta
Alexander

2011/7/22 Special Kain

If everyhing starts with choosing the right mentality, people deserve to be free to choose their religion as they see fit.
The Parsis have been misguided. The consequence of their intolerance and racism is nothing but their extinction!!! In this sense, their faith is downright destructive.
On the other hand, building communities is a sacred activity. So is there any religion more suitable for the global internet environment? I don't think so.

Ushta,
Dino

--- Special Kain schrieb am Fr, 22.7.2011:

Betreff: Re: [Ushta] Khashatra and Armaiti
An: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Freitag, 22. Juli, 2011 12:44 Uhr

According to Bahram Varza, the Gathic message is all about contributing constructively and creatively to the constant renewal of this world - our thoughts nurture our actions and our words, our actions and words have real consequences in this world (human beings as co-creators).
There's no talk about any other worlds (heaven, hell, astral planes, etc.) in The Gathas. There's no talk about heavenly father figures, punishment, salvation, sins, confessions - this junk is for Abrahamites and their masochistic desires.
I only disagree with Varza's panentheism.

Ushta,
Dino

--- Alexander Bard schrieb am Fr, 22.7.2011:

Von: Alexander Bard
Betreff: Re: [Ushta] Khashatra and Armaiti
An: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Freitag, 22. Juli, 2011 12:16 Uhr

Correct! Bahram Varza is BRILLIANT!!!

I often wonder also if not the German language - the language of process philosophers par excellence - is more suitable for Gathas and other Avesta translations than English is.
Ushta
Alexander

2011/7/22 Special Kain

I guess Bahram Varza meant the same thing when he defined Armaiti as "balance" and Khashatra as "that which follows good actions".
For everybody who doesn't know Varza yet, he has translated The Gathas into German. According his studies, Zarathushtra was a philosopher and teacher who said that people don't need any prophets nor blind faith in order to contribute constructively to civilization. All it takes is a constructive mentality to start with. In this sense, people are "doomed" to choose between blind faith and their capacity to think critically and independently. Zarathushtra never called himself a prophet. Prophets are for Abrahamites.

Ushta,
Dino

Zoroastrianism as PROCESS philosophy! (Plato vs Heraclitus)

Correct! And I couldn't agree more.
The true relative of Zarathushtra among the Greek philosophers, or rather the Greek who was inspired by Iranian thought, was Heraclitus. Definitely not Plato, by far the most "Abrahamic" of the Greek thinkers and only therefor enormously popular in Europe and the Middle East...
Ushta
Alexander

2011/7/22 Special Kain

According to Bahram Varza, the Gathic message is all about contributing constructively and creatively to the constant renewal of this world - our thoughts nurture our actions and our words, our actions and words have real consequences in this world (human beings as co-creators).
There's no talk about any other worlds (heaven, hell, astral planes, etc.) in The Gathas. There's no talk about heavenly father figures, punishment, salvation, sins, confessions - this junk is for Abrahamites and their masochistic desires.
I only disagree with Varza's panentheism.

Ushta,
Dino

--- Alexander Bard schrieb am Fr, 22.7.2011:

Von: Alexander Bard
Betreff: Re: [Ushta] Khashatra and Armaiti
An: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Freitag, 22. Juli, 2011 12:16 Uhr

Correct! Bahram Varza is BRILLIANT!!!

I often wonder also if not the German language - the language of process philosophers par excellence - is more suitable for Gathas and other Avesta translations than English is.
Ushta
Alexander

2011/7/22 Special Kain

I guess Bahram Varza meant the same thing when he defined Armaiti as "balance" and Khashatra as "that which follows good actions".
For everybody who doesn't know Varza yet, he has translated The Gathas into German. According his studies, Zarathushtra was a philosopher and teacher who said that people don't need any prophets nor blind faith in order to contribute constructively to civilization. All it takes is a constructive mentality to start with. In this sense, people are "doomed" to choose between blind faith and their capacity to think critically and independently. Zarathushtra never called himself a prophet. Prophets are for Abrahamites.

Ushta,
Dino

The Case Against Objective Absolutes

I agree with you 100%.
What we DESIRE is to live to life to its fullest and most intense IN ITS VERY MOVEMENT.
This is the opposite of ideas of objective absolutes.
Dino has said exactly the same thing as well. I'm glad we could sort out the verbal confusion.
Ushta
Alexander

2011/7/21 Daniel Samani

Dear friends,

The title is confusing I now realize - my intent where to bring light to to connection between absolutism, perfectionsm, moralism and suffering. This I view as destructive idealism - my basic belief here is that constructive way of thinking bring about constructive belieafs. And as I argue that perfectionistic fetishes are indeed empty and destructive - it's child the absolutism is also destructive. This is the creaton that have reached my mind when I read other works of philosophy.

Ushta,

Daniel

Khashatra and Armaiti

Khashatra is the "desire achieved through progress or movement" or "desire achieved and fulfilled through action" or "fulfillment of desire through action", in other words, the fulfillment of the triad of good thoughts, good words, good acts. Armaiti is the "spirit of generosity" or "the desire to give and make others enjoy fulfillment and achieve desire". So what Zarathushtra is saying is literally that Ahura Mazda is becoming MANIFEST in the very fellow human beings who live within and achieve and desire Khashatra and Armaiti. As you can tell, I don't think neither self-dominance or serenity are very appropriate translations here. Way too Abrahamic translations according to me. ;-)
Ushta
Alexander

2011/7/21 Daniel Samani
Song 1 (Hat 28)

3 O Righteousness (Asha), O Good Thought (vohu manah),
I shall sing you songs that no one
has sung before.
then, I shall offer them to Mazda Ahura,
and to those who have attained the power of Self-Dominance (Khashatra),
and have crossed into the realm of Serenity (Armaiti).

This I interpet as one need the power of Kashatra to grasp Zarathustras message - according to him. I essentially in my last post put my view on how on attain it. And why perfectionsm is a lie (druj) - that in consequence bring about suffering.

Ushta,

Daniel

Ethics, Idealism, Haurvatat

We should never use the words good and evil. Merely using the words brings us in the wrong direction. I don't see any reason why I would use terms like "astrology" or "dualism" either as they only direct me towards stupid myths (druj) away from the truth (asha). To stay within the realm of Zoroastrian ethics we should use words like "constructive" or "destructive" or "right" and "wrong" referring to constructive or destructive mentalities. The concentration camps of World War II were immensely "destructive" against humanity rather than "evil", just as an example.

Also, be careful when you use the term "idealism" in a philosophical discussion, it seems you use it in a sloppy Swedish sense where "idealism" is mistaken for "perfectionism". Idealism in English is a philosophical school lead by GHW Hegel in the 19th century and has really nothing to do with the private strife for perfection in life. That is "perfectionism". Which I have pointed out "haurvatat" has nothing to do with. "Haurvatat" is much closer to "harmony" rather than "perfection" in contemporary English.

Ushta
Alexander

2011/7/19 Daniel Samani
Dear Alexander,

I for myself think you are right in what you say (even though I must admit I haven't read ether Spinoza or Habermas work). But how does one relate to the reality of confusion and blurryness (as you put it) others in our society is captured in. If one agree (or clame to agree) on the ethics worldview but still use words as good and evil to colorize how one view the world. Simply ignoring this I feel wont help - how do we create ourself out of this mess?

Ushta,

Daniel