The Three Names of the Mazdayasni

Dear Bahman

Thank you for pointing this out!
All these three terms are now also widely used among Zoroastrians in Europe and the Americas.
"Mazdayasna/Mazdayasni" is especially popular as it has the same meaning as the Greek "Philosophia/Philosophers" which has a very attractive meaning to Western ears.

Ushta
Alexander

2010/1/20 Bahman Noruziaan
For the benefit of the newcomers into Zoroastrian studies or Zoroastrian community:
In our religious classes may years back in Iran, we, the young students were taught that we the Zoroastrians are called:
1-Zartoshtis (Zoroastrian) because we follow the teachings Zarathushtra
2-Behdin, because we follow the Good Religion (Dainya-o Vanghuya-o) , Beh means good in Persian and Din, means religion.
3-Mazdayasni, because we believe and praise the wise one (Mazda).
All these words, for the Zoroastrian community and a Zoroastrian meant and mean the same and are interchangable. They have been used with the same interpretation and meaning for thousands of years.
Bahman

The Meaning of Minoo

Dear Ardeshir

As an avid and long-time reader and student of Hegel, Hegel was adamant that "Geist" was 100% a material and physical phenomenon and consequently 100% mind. "Geist" is HOW MIND SEES ITSELF to Hegel. And no matter how fantastic that is, it is 100% body, 100% material and 100% physical. No supernatural mumbo-jumbo involved at all.
To say that translating minoo as mind is a monumental mistake is therefore a rather hysterical statement if you ask me. Can we please save expressions as "monumental mistake" for what is indeed monumental mistakes instead?
The APPRECIATION of Mind is what makes Zoroastrianism unique, but there is no belief whatsoever in The Gathas in a mind that is supernatural. It does not have to be. Nature is fantastic as it is, that is precisely why it is sacred to Zarathushtra. Ou AWE and ADMIRATION is directed towards creation itself as the expression of Ahura Mazda.
Please don't throw Plato into Zoroastrianism afterwards. Plato was an Egyptian-Greek philosopher. He lived 1,200 years after Zarathushtra! The true Iranian-Greek philosopher was Heraclitus, Plato's opponent, who was a strict monist.

Ushta
Alexander

2010/1/19 ardeshir farhmand

Dear Ushta Members

Parviz,

translating minoo as mind is a monumental mistake. true, minoo and mind are cognates.
yet minoo is "passion, energy, spirit, awareness and consciousness.
the meaning of minoo as spirit/awareness is present in all ancient indo-european languages.
minoo encompassess mind, but is much more than that, and it IS NOT just brain cells.
the concept behind minoo is very similar, if not identical to HEGELIAN GEIST/spirit.
the farsi minoo and manesh has pretty much retained their original meaning.yet when translators decided to translate it into the cognate MIND/MENTALITY the problem has arisen. for example english ghost and german geist are cognates. but if u translate the Hegelian concept of geist into english ghost, i am certain that u miss the whole point about Hegelian Philosophy.

Furthermore, Denkart reaffirms that awareness/consciousness is the building block/creative energy/essence of the universe. This idea IS pretty CONSISTENT with the poetic gathas.

the idea is that the universe is the physical form and manifestaion of pure knowledge and awareness.

Ardeshir

The Denkart and Mazdayasna

Dear Friends

I agree 100% with Parviz and Dino here. Let's not read too much into the Zoroastrian texts, let's follow Zarathushtra's example and use our minds wisely and don't swallow anything we read because we READ it and then interpret it ourselves. That is not mind-worship (Mazdayasna), that is just book-worship and this is not what Zarathushtra would have wanted us to do. It's Abrahamism and not Zoroastrianism.
The Denkart may be a fine text, but it is not The Gathas and it is certainly not a book on science. So just take it easy here, OK?

Ushta
Alexander

2010/1/19 Special Kain

Dear Ardeshir

I agree that we shouldn't confuse Zoroastrianism with radical scientism, simply because Zoroastrianism adds wisdom to science, but we're not supposed to believe blindly and swallow whatever is written in allegedly holy scriptures. Frankly, I think that we should dismiss such words as «holy», «sacred» and «spiritual» totally and permanently, because such concepts are much younger than The Gathas and belong to a different place in a different time. There's still a lot de-abrahamitization to be done.
Whether there's The Spiritual (as opposed to The Physical) that is manifesting itself within the natural world as we know it or not is a metaphysical question. And Zarathushtra didn't talk about what he wasn't sure about - that's why he never talked about life after death.

Ushta,
Dino


--- ardeshir farhmand schrieb am Di, 19.1.2010:

Von: ardeshir farhmand
Betreff: Re: [Ushta] PURITY LAWS and ETHICS
An: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
CC: "Parviz Varjavand"
Datum: Dienstag, 19. Januar 2010, 4:41


Parviz,

this passage is from the great DENKART, and u are again touching on a key point here. this passage reaffirms the gathic wisdom; that true "minoo" is an energy/spirit/ consciousness fully capable of realizing and manifesting itself, it is beaming with energy.

"manö/mainyü" is a knowledge/awareness , a spiritual formula capable of coming alive and manifesting itself . it is potent, real, and full of energy. that is when spiritual energy/minoo is pristine, original, vibrant, good and wonderful = vohü

yet, when it becomes afflicted or beaten = akö, it is no longer capable of manifestation. it can no longer CREATE. it can only spoil and corrupt the already manifested.

the above passage refers to spirit/thoughts/ ideas taking physical form and manifesting as the physical universe and knowledge appertaining thereto. i will expand on that in my future article concerning the previously discussed subject.

Albert Pike on Zoroastrianism in the 19th century

Dear Ardeshir

Albert Pike is evidence that there were a lot of Western Scholars in the 19th century who were not only familiar with Zarathushtra, The Gathas, the Avesta, but who also had studied the texts and the cultures in question in detail and knew what Zarathushtra's message and philosophy was all about.
Please handle these texts with great care, though. While Pike was no racist supremacist, but the typical 19th century jargon about "The Aryan Race" can easily be misunderstood and taken for racist by 21st century readers. Just like Nietzsche's writings are constantly misunderstood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike

Ushta
Alexander

2010/1/17 ardeshir farhmand

Hi Ushta

"albert pike" was not a per-se "gatha scholar," but a prominent southern confederate general from Arkansas. yet his books on the subject are so OBJECTIVE and have NO hidden agenda to elevate judeo-christian supremacy; an element that is in so many so-caleed scholarly works up to today. PIKE, in fact proclaims that the mazdyasni/zoroastrian wisdom is the TRUE SPIRITUAL WISDOM. interesting/objective books to read. i thought people on our forum might enjoy his objective studies. he is the MAN that to this day the born-again christians in america LOVE TO HATE.
also his alleged association in the formation of KKK has been proven to be bible belt BS.

all these books are entirely accessible. the difference between full view and limited view ids that the former allows u to have a plain text version vs. the latter gives u only an image, and u can not cut and paste it into a plain text.
lectures of the arya///limited view//albert pike----amazingly accurate info

http://books.google.com/books?id=yn8MXyF7J4UC&lpg=PP1&dq=albert%20pike&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

irano-aryan faith and doctrine as contained in zend-avesta///limited view///albert pike

http://books.google.com/books?id=SvVri3ja0SUC&lpg=PP1&dq=albert%20pike&lr=&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism in the West

Dear Bahman

I think the most important reason for the popularity of Hinduism and Buddhism in the West is because there are many Indians and East Asians in Europe and America. And many westerners travel to India and East Asia. So there is a lot of cultural exchange.
Few if any westerners want to visit Iran since the current government in the country don't welcome them. And Iranians living abroad are far too quiet about their culture and tradition. Perhaps also because Iranian migrants don't know that much about Iranian philosophy and history.
Many young Iranians in Europe are so ashmed about being Iranian that they try to present themselves as Italians or other Latinos. It's all quite pathetic. But it is the truth.

Ushta
Alexander

2010/1/17 Bahman Noruziaan

Among the eastern religions and faiths, apparently Hinduism and Buddhism have found a good number of followers among the western people. I wonder whether such appreciation and acceptance is based on the philosophical and intellectual ideas and concepts of these religions or their ritualistic and spiritual appeals.
Are people looking for new schools of thought to find peace and meaning in their lives, or perhaps a sense of belonging to the universe and connection to it and finding spiritual solace?
Are they finding prayers, rituals and communal/religious congregations and festivals soothing their spirits and fulfilling their needs or, they find the intellectual and philosophical concepts of these great religions enough for satisfying their mental and emotional needs and challenges?

Zoroastrianism and Iranian nationalism

Dear Rory

Judaism and Christianity have no potential to harbor Iranian nationalism.
Zoroastrianism has every potential to become the engine of Iranian nationalism. That should explain everything.
Iranian nationalism is not necessarily what we are interested in. It could be rather problematic for those of us who are interested in Mazdayasna as a universal philosophy for the 21st century.
But the current situation is easily explained.

Ushta
Alexander

2010/1/17 Rory

Dear Ardeshir,



"the iranian gov has paid great sums for the building of armenian churches, has generously some ultra-orthodox/anti-zionist jewish groups. yet, has not allowed the building of even a SINGLE fire temple. zoroastrian archaeological ruins are purposefully neglected and destroyed".

Sounds like they are afraid of Zoroastrianism.

Ushta,

Rory


--- In Ushta@yahoogroups.com, ardeshir farhmand wrote:
>
> Dear Ushta, Alexander
>
> Thank u for ur *excellent analysis*. they attack the "poetic gathas" because
> they want to remove us legally as people of the book, hence, strip the
> iranian zoroastrians and many young iranians that are flocking to the
> zoroastrian religion of their civil rights.
>
> not long ago, shia on line criticized "tehran municipal gov" for hosting a
> book fair on the zoroastian religion. shia on line accused them of
> promoting/advertising the zoroastrian faith, which in their words was *a
> faith without a book.* council of mobeds protested and demanded apology but
> no apology came.
>
> these elements claim to be the follower of the first shia imam ali, but ali
> was the one who proclaimed the profound wisdom of the magis and decisevly
> proclaimed them as people of the book. after all salman/former "mobed
> dinyar" was ali's close ally/companion.
> yet omar, the second caliph was of the strong opinion that all knowledge
> other than koran, must be burned and destroyed ; for if such
> knowledge/wisdon is in koran there is no additional need for it and if it is
> out of/or above koran, it must be destroyed, so koranic knowledge shall
> reign supreme.
>
> u decide which faction these elements are following despite their alleged
> allegiance to the party of ali and hossein who was married to a zoroastrian
> noble woman.
>
> and also remember the iranian gov has paid great sums for the building of
> armenian churches, has generously some ultra-orthodox/anti-zionist jewish
> groups. yet, has not allowed the building of even a SINGLE fire temple.
> zoroastrian archaeological ruins are purposefully neglected and destroyed.
>
> THE ISSUE IS FAR TOO GREAT TO BE IGNORED and/or OVERLOOKED.
>
> Ardeshir

Zoroastrianism as Ahl-Al-Kitab

Dear Friends

The extremely important point that Bahman is stressing here is that there is an enormous difference, judicially, socially, legally, in Iran and all sharia-abiding nations between being a religion of a "people of the book" (Ahl-Al-Kitab) and being reduced to a religion "without a book". This explains the popularity of attacks against The Gathas and The Avesta. If our books are discredited and eventually removed from legal status, we are open for the most venomous attacks while being defenseless. So these attacks are meant as a direct attack on the social status of Zoroastrians, as to make us more vulnerable and easier to persecute. We therefore have loads of reasons to counterattack such attempts and must do so. It is an issue of fighting for asha against druj if anything.

Ushta
Alexander

2010/1/15 Bahman Noruziaan

Hi Dino,

Regarding this point of yours:



"Since you pretend to know the possible repercussions of such claims as Rajabi's, would you please let us know about those possible repercussions, so we can make a well-informed and wise choice?"

I advise you to study the rules of "Sharia" , the Islamic law, about the attitude of Muslims towards non-believers in Islam. You need to study the difference between Ahl-Al-Kitab (people of the book) and other category of non-believers or "Kafirs" (i.e. those who according to Islam are not considered Ahl-Al-Kitab), according to "Sharia".

I also advise you to study and know about the position of "Shia" Islam towards Zoroastrians and the fact that among Muslims, the "Shias" specially and based on the words of their Imams (such as Imam Ali) consider Zoroastrians Ahl-Al-Kitab.

You also should know that a big population of Zoroastrians (relatively speaking) are living in Iran. A good number in Pakistan, Dubai, Kuwait, Imarat and some other Islamic countries.

Go for it, Dino, and search the truth for yourself.

Then you decide what possible repercussions could be if the authenticity of the core of Zoroastrian books, i.e the Gathas (let alone the Avesta); is being questioned?


Bahman


To: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
From: special_kain@yahoo.de
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:27:30 +0000
Subject: RE: [Ushta] The Gathas, authentic!



Dear Bahman

Since you pretend to know the possible repercussions of such claims as Rajabi's, would you please let us know about those possible repercussions, so we can make a well-informed and wise choice?
Trust me, we only have the best for Mazdayasna philosophy in mind, namely: introducing Iranian philosophy and its rich culture and history to the western world. The western would ought to now that there's more to Iran than Ahmadinejad's personal madness and the opposition's protests.
Please drop a note and let me know if I'm mistaken in believing that The Gathas were at the innermost core of Mazdayasna philosophy. Judging from my studies and conversations with fellow Mazdayasni, our beautiful and encouraging philosophy is all about worshipping and celebrating our capacity to think critically and independently, so we should support science and education. To me that's just as important as studying the old scriptures and sticking closely to Zarathushtra's original messages.

Ushta,
Dino

--- Bahman Noruziaan schrieb am Fr, 15.1.2010:

Von: Bahman Noruziaan
Betreff: RE: [Ushta] The Gathas, authentic!
An: "Ushta Ushta"
Datum: Freitag, 15. Januar 2010, 2:21


Hello Alexander,

You say: "Zarathushtra and The Gathas are nowadays loved and read across the world. What is the problem?"


There is no problem with this. There is a lot wrong however, with the trend that I have referred in my original posting below, i.e. AVESTA BASHING, you know!

And you do not seem to have grasped the point of my original posting. I however, am not surprised if neither you nor Dino, nor any new western converts or non-converts did get the point.

I am surprised that those of Zoroastrian descent do not get the possible repercussion of such claims made by Rajabi and his publisher.