Zarathushtra is correctly not interested in specific choices but in "mentalities" and thereby in "self-identities". His idea of a society of asha is simply what we would refer to as a "civilization".
To him, there are no indepedent choices, choices are the results of contemplation first and foremost concerning "who we are to ourselves". As ethical beings.
So you don't become your acts as much as you act according to who you are: Thoughts, words, actions...
Ushta
Alexander
2011/7/25 hampus lindblad
I agree, and have in reality never stated anything differently... You are reading into my text something I didn't express.
Decisions are often collective and complex and made within a large frame, yet it is the sum of the myriad of individual "decisions" based on that cluster effect that shapes the world both around and within us. What matters is not who is to blame - or to be credited - for the "choice" in a particular situation, but that the "choice" is asha.
Ushta,
Hampus
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Alexander Bard
I don't think we should trivialize a concept like asha by making it an issue of individual choice, that in itself is quite 18th century bourgeoise to be honest. Decisions are often collective and complex and made within a large frame. If there ever is to be peace between Israel and Palestine it will never come about through just one decision by one person in one situation but must be organized on a far higher level, especially politically.
Ushta
Alexander
2011/7/25 hampus lindblad
Yes, but then the next question arises about how to pragmatically break the druj chain of causality. How to insert asha awareness into the mind of the Hamas member about to launch the katyusha rocket, or the IDF soldier with his finger on the trigger, just about to squeeze off a shot whilst aiming at a group of protesters? There's a quite staggering amount of forgiveness needed in order to even begin to turn this positive feedback loop around.
Words might be the origin of actions, but that doesn't diminish the truth in the saying that actions speak louder than words. And I'm sure you agree.
Ushta,
Hampus
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Alexander Bard
Israel vs Palestine is quite simple:
Any worldview which starts with the assumption that one belongs to a superior race or religion which motivates the stealing from and even killing of other races or religions is druj at its very heart.
Living in peace with and respect of your fellow human beings is asha.
Ushta
Alexander
2011/7/25 hampus lindblad
Dear Parviz,
I confess to still not being able to follow you. Do you not think it somewhat unfair to belittle the social scientist's aspirations to increase the level of understanding within his or her field of research? It's very natural that one, generally speaking, can not come to the same type of "hard" facts and conclusions within the social sciences as is possible within research dealing with the strength of materials or the atomic weight of chemical elements. The reason for this I would say is simply a problem of potential precision in measurement and the extreme complexities associated with experiments in social science; thus resulting in a much wider margin of error. But that does not make social science any less scientific nor the exploratory ambitions of social scientists any less noble than those of let's say nuclear physicists or chemists. In other words, they do the best they can with what data is available to them...
And I disagree with your tango example as well. Asha could never dance passionately with Druj. When Asha would lead right, Druj would go in the opposite direction. Or perhaps even knee Asha in the balls and thus put a swift end to the dance altogether. Asha only dances with Asha.
I would rather say that the mental image you conjure up with the highly skilled and passionate dancers is actually a very effective metaphor of Asha in action. If we could only somehow force all Israelis and Palestinians to regularly dance tango with eachother then I'm sure the troubles there would soon be over. Dancing is all about making things work, and ideally work in a way that is beautiful to behold or partake in. What is that if not Asha?
Ushta,
Hampus
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 5:37 AM, Parviz Varjavand
Dear Hampus,
Let me try and answere your good question, "could you please expand on your statement that to you Asha is "only Laws of Physics" that one should not "tag mental things to"?"
To me, science and the scientific method works best when we are where laws of Physics works best. As an architect, I work with "strength of materials" in order to render my buildings as earthquake-proof as I can. Yes, it is not a perfect science, but I can show how I arrive at conclusions I arrive at more or less scientifically. I can not understand how a "Social Scientist" can consider him or herself a scientist on the same wave length as a strength of material scientist!
I will put a Communist and a Capitalist and a Nazi social scientist in the same room and they will not agree on any single issue about what the Asha of running a government is. In mental realms Asha and Druj dance together like a couple dancing Argentine Tango most passionately. As reference to the videos that you mention, remember that I am talking to you from Tehran with a band-with that is only 21.3 kbps, I can not watch Youtube.
In my take on Zoroastrianism (or Muzdaizm as I call it) we have Asha and AshaVahishta (also Vahishtayi Ashem or Ashem-Vohoo). Asha Vahishta means "That Asha Which Is The Best". Asha as laws of science applies only to where the laws of Physics works best and it is by Asha Vahishta that we try to approximate when we are dealing with issues in the Minoo or Menog or Mental world. A marriage counselor has no solid Asha to judge the couple by, only Asha Vahishta of what may work best for that couple.
Mehr Afzoon,
Parviz Varjavand
From: Parviz Varjavand
To: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, July 25, 2011 6:58:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Ushta] Asha and Druj
Dear Hampus and Dino,
Is Asha with Israel or the Palestinians?
Parviz
From: Special Kain
To: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, July 25, 2011 1:18:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Ushta] Asha and Druj
Dear Hampus
I agree!!!
When studying the works of Charles S. Peirce, John Dewey and Richard Rorty, I discovered that Zarathushtra was the first PRAGMATIST in history. Especially Peirce and Dewey were brilliant thinkers, but their key messages were already written down in The Gathas.
In modern words, Zarathushtra was not only a process philosopher ("the world's constant renewal"), but also a pragmatist.
Besides, ethics can only be situational and pragmatic, since ethicists are not obsessed with absolutes.
Ushta,
Dino
--- hampus lindblad
Von: hampus lindblad
Betreff: Re: [Ushta] Asha and Druj
An: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Sonntag, 24. Juli, 2011 21:37 Uhr
Dear Parviz,
I find your message quite confusing. How could we not tag mental things to Asha when the whole foundation of Mazdayasna - unless I am completely mistaken in what I've gathered so far - is all about focusing on our mental processes as the foundation for our words and actions and therefore also the driving engine behind all human interactions and events?
The phenomena you describe with "Asha sales-persons" constitutes a problem in a community where there are no mental checks and balances. Where they don't actually practice what they teach, nor update and translate what they teach in rhythm with the surrounding culture. And that can in my mind only arise in environments where people have done exactly what you prescribe; i.e. stopped tagging mental things to Asha. And yes, it's obviously a very common problem in our world, but I don't see how an even further decoupling of Asha-awareness from our "mental things" would work to alleviate anything?
What makes Mazdayasna such a constructive (and eternally modern) way of thinking to me is that it seems to contain within itself a sort of self-regulatory system akin to the scientific method. It deals with ideas that work, much in the same way that science deals with what is proven to be approximately true through duplicable experiments and the gathering of empirical evidence. And just as genuine scientists never speak of any absolute truths but rather theories and pragmatic approximations, the same should in my mind go for the classification of thoughts, words and actions as Druj or Asha. It is the intention and aspiration towards Asha that one should dwell within - not the vain and narcissistic illusion of being a perfect Ashavan. Because of course Asha and Druj does not exists in and of themselves! Just like ethics...
From what I understand Asha is not a static mental state, a religious golden watch, attained as a sort of permanent gift awarded to the true believer for a long and faithful service. Asha is rather a intelligently designed, ethics-optimizing process, willfully projected and latched onto the neutral background processes that constitute the physical Universe. And Druj is simply the varying degrees of lack thereof. Zoroastrianism would at it's core then consist of highly situational and inherently adaptive, ethical formulas if you will. Nothing MORE and nothing LESS. Process philosophy! The antithesis of religious kitsch and empty rituals. And nothing like the religion seen practiced in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWQhFdeRTyk
The elder man being interviewed seems kind and loving but is hardly a great thinker. And it is not a great mystery, nor a tragedy, that the Parsis have trouble keeping their young interested if they have devolved into practicing more or less pure fetishism. I don't possess enough insight into Parsi culture to determine whether that is actually the case or not, all I'm doing is reacting to this one particular video and a couple of other glimpses of Parsi culture encountered on the net. So please forgive me anyone that might feel offended by what I'm writing.
With that said though, I won't deny that I actually see more of Ahura Mazda in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxEdqsr8QWI
Funny or not funny as it may seem in the eyes and ears of the beholder. I propose that one possible partial litmus test of a potential Ashavan is the ability to laugh at him or herself, or parodies of Zoroastrianism and/or Zarathushtra too for that matter.
I want to end by clarifying that I am of course very open to the possibility that I could be completely mistaken in regards to most, if not all, that is written above! I haven't even read through the complete Gathas as of yet, so my understanding of all this is very much limited for the time being - and I might be projecting heavily. So, to cut things short after all of my freewheeling above, could you please expand on your statement that to you Asha is "only Laws of Physics" that one should not "tag mental things to"?
Ushta,
Hampus
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Parviz Varjavand
Dear Folks,
To me, Asha is only Laws of Physics.
Because the minute you want to tag mental things to Asha, the waters become very muddy soon.
Everybody will claim that their Druj is Asha if you put up with it long enough.
The Asha sales-persons become too many, every self centered despot and dictator starts claiming that they are
an Ashavan but their Druji opposition is throwing curve balls at them and not letting their Asha succeed.
The mudslinging that "mine is Asha, yours is Druj" becomes a street brawl for all everytime.
How do you propose to solve that problem?
In old Zoroastrian Tradition, they would pour molten bronze on your chest; if it burned you and you died, yours was a Druj;
if it did not burn you and you lived, you were on the side of Asha.
They did this to Moobed Adorbad Marasepandan and it did not burn him, so they knew that what he preached was the Truth.
Try this on a friend you do not want around any longer! It does work!? They either ran away or die, either way you get rid of them!
Mehr Afzoon,
Parviz Varjavand
From: Special Kain
To: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, July 24, 2011 5:37:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Ushta] The Meaning of Druj
Dear Hampus
We agree!
Asha is that which works in the long run. Druj is that which works at first, but which will prove the feedback loop between sender (people acting in accordance with druj) and their surroundings to be destructive - the vicious circle as studied in modern psychology and systemic psychotherapy.
The doctrine of asha is tough: the people involved are always part of the very same situation. This is why we should focus on the little actions we undertake that reflect our mentalities and habits and adjust them accordingly. This is why far-sightedness is so important!
Ushta,
Dino
--- hampus lindblad
Von: hampus lindblad
Betreff: Re: [Ushta] The Meaning of Druj
An: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Sonntag, 24. Juli, 2011 14:32 Uhr
Dear Dino
Do you see a contradiction between our texts? If so please point me to it!
Ushta,
Hampus
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Special Kain
Dear Hampus
Asha means three things: the true order of the things, the relentless pursuit of the truth and truthfulness. In order words you are ethically obliged to be honest with yourself and live in accordance with your desires, as well as enable the people around you to enjoy themselves and live accordingly.
Druj is all the pretty and fluffy lies we tell ourselves in order not to live passionately and authentically. It is all the things we do in order to hide ourselves and grow bitter and cynical. And it is all the words and actions that prevent other people from enjoying themselves and living to their fullest potential, such as tyranny, betrayal, resentment, slavery and so on.
Since everything starts inside our minds, we have to be willing to be honest with ourselves and to develop a constructive mentality. It is a question of attitude.
Ushta,
Dino
--- hampus lindblad
Von: hampus lindblad
Betreff: Re: [Ushta] The Meaning of Druj
An: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Samstag, 23. Juli, 2011 23:01 Uhr
But when I write about druj "working" it's not meant to signify working for the individual propagating it through his or her actions. Druj would be inherently and omnidirectionally destructive (at least in a sort of net effect calculation) and thus work against it's "host" or propagator, even on the short term basis. The only way it can seem to work on the short term would be through a sort of Ponzi scheme type of process. Or one could use the basic dynamics of addiction to illustrate something similar.
So what I mean by "working" is rather that it is a successfully replicating process (e.g. hate breeds hate) which is also why I brought up Darwinism. It would also happen that non-druj events trigger druj-causality through sheer tragic misunderstandings and so on.
Ushta,
Hampus
On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 8:55 PM, Alexander Bard
Druj merely works in the short run, but the original meaning of druj ("that which does not work") does not refer to short-term causes and effects but to the long-term perspective. So you're both right, just talking about two very different perspectives. Please note druj does not mean "that which does not function" and even less so "that which does not exist" but rather "that which does not work in the sense of returning a pride in onself, an authentic self-identity".
Ushta
Alexander
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