A pristine world (with no humans in it), really?

Dear Parviz, Ardeshir and friends

As far as I'm concerned, the word "perfection" did not exist in the Avesta language to begin with.
And if the concept of "haurvatat" is what we discuss here, it's not only a term hard to translate to contemporary English but it is also a concept which is always placed in the distant future as an abstract goal by Zarathushtra.
Zarathushtra recommends us to see the world as good in itself, yes, - THROUGH OUR OWN CHOICE - but that is not the same thing as to say that the world IS good in itself. The world just is. Please don't try to sneak Abrahamism into Zoroastrianism again through the backdoor. OK? There is no external judge who has set values for us in Zoroastrianism. We set the values ourselves AS WE SEE FIT.
That is the whole point with Mazdayasna: To realise that we as subjects are our own judges. Nobody else judges for us.

Ushta
Alexander

2010/2/22 Parviz Varjavand

My two cents,

Ardeshir's vision is fascinating and I will have to sit back and just enjoy it, like watching the Avatar film ;-) So far we have Perfect Mind (Minoo) creating our world (Guity) perfect, but we humans plus some other entities (Jinns and cows, I guess) bring evil into it with their wrong choices (choices like humans deciding to walk upright ;-) . This is one rehashing of the story of the Fall and nothing more, but let us enjoy it when told by an artist as skilled as Ardeshir.

About your comments, Bahman, if you want a perfect Guity created by a perfect Minoo and not corrupted yet, go live on Mars or Pluto. Since there is no life there, the perfect Minoo ardeshir adores can play in perfect harmony there as there is no life there to usher in Evil yet.

As far as I am concerned, Guity or the world has to come first for life to evolve out of the mud in it and as this life form evolves, it gets a mind and Minoo is this mind creating a mental world (Jahane Minavi) for itself. To turn this equation the other way around makes us end with a story of the Fall (Hoboot) and tries to put a perfect Mind in the skies that can not Sin and we humans down here responsible for bringing about Evil by our wrong choices (sins). A very muddy vision full of useless guilt and nothing more.

Yours in friendship,
Parviz Varjavand

--- On Sun, 2/21/10, ardeshir farhmand wrote:

From: ardeshir farhmand
Subject: Re: [Ushta] a pristine world
To: "Bahman Noruziaan"
Cc: kamran.jamshidi@gmail.com, "mehrdad farahmand" , Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 10:17 AM


Dear Bahman,

material manifestation was beautiful, pristine and far less rigid. the wrong CHOICES
turned it into rigid and limited. please look at the first chapters of the farvardin yasht in addition to the poetic gathas, for they provide an illuminating commentary.

and u are bringing another good point. evil has not to do just with human choices. it also encompasses wrong choices by other beings/powers, past remnants of other creations that stopped growing and evolving, the hostile force or daevas.

power of choosing is GOOD, now, if material manifestations choose to make wrong decisions with their power to choose is a wholly different matter. it does not make the material world evil. ur point is correct; evil CREPT later into the material universe, it was NOT there to begin with. but it came about as a result of STUPIDITY and not just the stupidity of humankind, but other conscious entities/energies and was magnified by humans later.

MAZYASNA does NOT see the material world as evil or even remotely as the cause of the evil. it looks at evil as a by-product of WRONG CHOICES by CONSCIOUS BEINGS/ENERGIES, human or non-human.

and calls evil a delusion becz it has no permanent/lasting quality, it is temporary and will disappear, as soon as it has served its purpose in the learning/growth process of the universe. evil will disappear, since it has no place in the fabric of being or existence it simply will melt away as material universe evolves and grows and becomes more dynamic and intelligent.

remember "anygra" comes from the root "ag" namely beaten: it simply means a beaten, depleted mind/spirit; limited, stagnated, and unable to grow and unable to be dynamic anymore.

good and evil depends on choices and on understanding/ wit/mind/ spirit/MINOO and if it is auspicious, growing and vibrant, OR beaten, stagnated and limited.
the whole depiction in Yasna 30 is about the passion/energy level/vibrant power of consciousness in general, not about human minds necessarily.

limiting it to the human mind is the much later insertion and wrong deduction of some western scholars and dr. jaffary in particular, talking about APOLOGIST reasoning, this is a good instance of such.

ardeshir

On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Bahman Noruziaan wrote:
Hello Ardeshir,

Humans lie, hurt, kill and do other "evils" or "wrong" or "unrighteous acts".
Humnas are the work of creation and not out of the realm of creation.
Then why such a pristine universe or existence has ended up creating such a wrong doing creature, one wonders?
My understanding from Mazdayasna is that when "Gaiti" came into existence out of "Mainyoo", imperfection, decay, corruption and death and so on crept into the material world.
It was the nature and necessity of this material world to come about.
It does not do anything with our perception nor it is an illusion.
It is the true nature of the material world.

Regards
Bahman

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:25:41 -0800
Subject: Re: [Ushta] a pristine world
From: ardeshir72@gmail. com
To: Ushta@yahoogroups. com
CC: bahman_noruziaan@ hotmail.com; special_kain@ yahoo.de; solvolant@yahoo. com; eeduljee@yahoo. ca

Dear Bahman, Dino, Parviz

let me use an example, let us take sexuality for example; it is good and healthy. a natural, pristine and beautiful force. now when people try with their limited, crude physical mind to turn it into something bad or something to feel guilty about; it becomes a source of tension, suffering, guilt, shame, honor killings and.........

yet it is good and wonderful in essence. it is the wrong choices based on crude, limited physical minds that created ideas like say abstinence, monk hood and .... that turn this pristine goodness into a cause of suffering, disease and guilt.

and exactly similar crude choices on various levels have prevented the physical universe to manifest itself from being less rigid, more luminous and flexible.

and parviz, about ur contention that the physical is the source of mind/spirit, i disagree with u 1000%. the fact is that such materialistic ideas that u try give them scientific credibility are being discredited more and more in the scientific community.
true, still some hold out to such outdated and fossilized ideas among scientists, but their materialistic views has come under serious questioning and assault, as horizons are widening in every scientific field.

what u like to label as ur brand of "Mazdaism" is nothing more than an evolved and refined "Marxism," with pure supremacy given to the unfinished and still evolving material over anything else. and u even admitted it in ur last correspondence, when u declared that matter has given birth to mind/spirit and not the other way around.

as i said, i do ENJOY ur oppositions and read them with interest and fun. however, it is my firm belief that humans are utterly in love with their own limitations and inferiority, and can NOT bear to admit a higher possibility /reality. this desire to deny a higher and more evolved reality and stick to our crude, limited, physical humanity and call all else a fantasy is the very stamp of humanity and the very cause of misery and suffering in the world. take it with good cheers and my best wishes.

ardeshir