I agree with Dino. Since human beings are MANIFESTATIONS of Mazda, then I find Mazda in the kinds of other human beings. As long as Mazda materialises in the shape of other human beings, that is where I find a Mazda to have a dialogue with (not excluding the possibility of other homes for Mazda if they should appear). My friends, my family, my congregation, but also in the eyes of strangers from other sides of the world from where I live. That's where I find Mazda.
Isn't even the internet in this sense a giant manifestation of Mazda too?
Ushta
Alexander
2010/1/22 Special Kain
Dear Parviz and Ardeshir
There's an overwhelmingly big universe (Ahura). Within this overwhelmingly big universe, there are intelligent organisms - on our dear planet - that can examine and reshape the conditions of their existence and intelligence (Mazda).
I don't see any beyond in this simple story. There's no transcendental pool of infinite possibilities emanating from a 100% non-physical and all-encompassing mind. And please don't mistake our vocabularies for pretty photographs - such stories are there to help us predict and control future events (and to come to terms with past experiences).
My two cents this morning,
Dino
--- Parviz Varjavand
Von: Parviz Varjavand
Betreff: [Ushta] The limited meaning of Mazda
An: Ushta@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Freitag, 22. Januar 2010, 8:24
Ardeshir, dorood,
I also enjoy reading you and I do wish us to not drift apart as two born Zartoshtis because of what we say to one another. You are right that it is painful to be all alone as humans and have no other creature of the same level of intelligence or higher visible anywhere in the cosmos. But what is the answer? Is it any answer to manufacture one out of our imagination and then try to communicate with it? We are very very helpless, otherwise the Great Religions would not grow so Great. What do they give us? Imaginary masters, friends, lovers, in the skies with whom we can try to relate and not feel so abandoned by a cold and mechanical universe? What if we wake up from this sleep of fantasy and say that we do not want their answer to our lonely situation anymore? My feeling is that then we may be able to talk to the Cow and the Cow would talk back to us with more freedom and passion than ever. The Cow is the only thing worth talking to because THE COW IS ALIVE. The Skies are not Alive. The skies are DEAD, DEAD, DEAD, I hate all of those who talk to the skies as if it is alive while the Cow is dying right in front of their eyes. The skies can not help us because they are a set of dead mechanical machinery while the Cow is helping us while bleeding for us giving us food and shelter. The Cow was right in its lamentations to Ahoora Mazda at the opening passages of the Gatha. One more bearded-wonder and one more sacred book was not what the Cow needed. We need answeres for life and not afterlife.
Parviz Varjavand
--- On Thu, 1/21/10, ardeshir farhmand
From: ardeshir farhmand
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ushta] the true meaning of mazdá
To: Ushta@yahoogroups. com
Cc: "Alexander Bard"
Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 7:50 AM
whatever, parviz, it seems i have a hard time getting my message across to u.
but keep posting ur comments, i enjoy reading them anyways.
however i strongly disagree with the biblical view that humans are at the center of the universe. THEY ARE NOT. im also opposed to give this human-centric view a scientific legitimac y; and assume that everything is about the very limited and at many times incapable human faculties. earth is a wonderful speck in the universe. and humans are rather star-dust. they can connect to infinity of wisdom, but they certainly do not embody it at all times.
ardeshir
On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 7:29 AM, Parviz Varjavand
Ardeshir,
Using WORD PLAY and POETRY to some means that they can avoid admitting that they have ever been wrong when pontificating around any subject. They can keep knowing the TRUE MEANING of any obscure topic they delve into without being challenged.
Parviz
--- On Thu, 1/21/10, ardeshir farhmand
From: ardeshir farhmand
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ushta] the true meaning of mazdá
To: Ushta@yahoogroups. com
Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 6:59 AM
Parviz,
i cited the traditional meaning and then compared it with vedic and indo-european cognates. and i reaffirmed a word-play that suggests all this possible meanings are co-realted. so this is what u miss the importance of WORD PLAY in poetry.
ardeshir
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 9:16 PM, Parviz Varjavand
Dear Ardeshir,
I do read what you write very carefully.
You are saying that MAZ means BIG as in MEMASS and BAMASS.
You are saying that DA is related to DANESH and means WISDOM.
You are saying that when put together in AHURA MAZDA we get BIG WISDOM.
I say that is the MA part of MAZDA which means WISDOM and relates to the word MIND and MANIDAN, that there is nothing that means BIG in the word AHURA MAZDA.
Please read what you write more carefully and then read what I have to say about it more carefully. What we are each saying is very important and very well thought out by both of us, no need to try and belittle each other as someone who is not a careful reader.
Ushta, te,
Parviz Varjavand
--- On Wed, 1/20/10, ardeshir farhmand
From: ardeshir farhmand
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ushta] the true meaning of mazdá
To: Ushta@yahoogroups. com
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 2010, 8:28 PM
Dear Parviz,
i am alluding to the indo-germanic poetic word play. there is no mention of big daddy. read it one more time carefully. i am citing all possible vedic connections and all possible ancient indo-european connections. it seems to me that my comparative study is pretty much in line with the ancient exegesis and its conclusion concernin g the meaning of the word. again remember the word-play. the word has intentionally a layer of related meanings as is the tradition in the indo-germanic bardic tradition.
ardeshir
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 8:02 PM, Parviz Varjavand
Friends, I noticed that the key writing of Mr. Ardeshir Farahmand was not included when I posted my answere to it. I am posting it to you here. Parviz Varjavand
--- On Wed, 1/20/10, ardeshir farhmand
From: ardeshir farhmand
Subject: [Ushta] the true meaning of mazdá
To: "mehrdad farahmand"
Cc: Ushta@yahoogroups. com
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 2010, 9:19 AM
i alluded in my ahün-var article to this, the very name "mazdá," not only suggests inherent wisdom and intuitive understanding, but it is connected to thoughts, memory and brilliant ideas, Lith. mintis "thought, idea, and vision; greek mantis "one who divines, prophet, seer.
more interestingly the word is related to Skt. mahan/mahas "the great world of possibilities. "
"this is strongly confirmed by the ancient exegesis. accordingly, this shows most interesting connection to O.E. mæg (inf. magan, pt. meahte, mihte), from P.Gmc. root mag-, O.N. mega, Ger. mögen, Goth. magan "to be able"), from PIE *mogh-/*megh- "power to realize." O.C.S. mogo "to be able," mosti "power, force," ." "mazdá" is not only vision and wisdom, but also the power to realize that vision and make it happen and möglich.
Furthermore, "shyaotha-na- nám" in ahünvar or Yasna 27.13 refers to the manifesting act of "spentá mainyü " or the auspicious spirit of ahurmazd.
In short, mazdá is all the wisdom/meta- knowledge we have to acquire, all the wondrous powers we have to obtain, all the new, amazing and awesome possibilities that we must aspire to realize.
ü ö á
mazdá is the same as Greek "Metis" and Sanskrit "Medha," they all seem to point to learning, wisdom, intuitive understanding, skill/craft via superb mental/spiritual powers.
The Lithuanian "mandras" "wide-awake, " O.C.S. madru "wise, sage," Goth. mundonsis "to look at, all come from the same root. There seem to be also a germanic "mntr" meaning "awake, lively,intelligent. " We also encounter "medhira," described in Rigveda 8.6.10 as the "insight into the truth of things."
The Zoroastrian tradition translates Maz-da, as "mas danaki" or "mas danai," "great vision," "great wisdom;" or the "greatly wise" and of "superb understanding/ insight."
In the vedas we have three supreme worlds whose names are not given. But in the vedantic books the greatest of all these supreme worlds is MAHAS, the great world. The principle of MAHAS is "vi-jnana or gnosis, superb knowledge as well as insightful understanding of things which leads upwards to MAYAS or awesome powers to make and create. See O.E. macian, from W.Gmc. "to build, make," O.H.G. mahhon, Ger. machen.)
In short, MAZDA means insight, superior understanding, sagacity, and GREAT GENIUS. Zarathushtra declares that WISDOM, VISION and GREAT GENIUS is the POWER SUPREME or MAZDA AHURA as he calls it.
Notice the deliberate and beautiful indo-germanic word-play that suggests "mazdá," wisdom and vision, mental/spiritual abilities is the "ahura par excellence or "ahura maximus."
(Writen by Mr. Ardeshir Farahmand)
My responce (Parviz Varjavand)
Dear readers,
First: We are all best of friends. We do not have personal fights. Philosophy must have the freedom of argument back and forth otherwise it becomes Theology. Theology is the repeating of one set of dogmas per dictates of one set of sacred books, it does not become the free and freedom giving Philosophy that can go anywhere it wants to. I argue that Mazdayasna is Philosophy, it is not the Theology of one set of books of any religious teachings and traditions.
Second: Dear Ardeshir and Dear Bahman argue that according to sacred books of the Zoroastrians, man can progress towards perfection and become God. I have no argument with this if it is the same imagery that Nietzsche uses in his Man walking on a tightrope between the Monkey and the Superman. But I argue with this imagery if it assumes that
there is a Big-Daddy somewhere in the intangible realms already and I am on my way to progress and actually become my Big-Daddy.
Third: The meaning of key words such as Ahoora, Mazda, Minoo, Yasna, and many more, are very important when given weight in one direction or another. Our Nomenclature of these key words, as we agree upon their meanings, will take us either to where Nietzsche wants to take us (philosophically speaking) OR they will take us where the poet Rumi wants to take us (and the great Monotheist teachers such as Moses and Christ). Rumi (Mowlavi) is saying the same thing that St. Augustin is saying, that we are fallen creatures and must return to the garden of our Big-Daddy the perfect God that exists out there somewhere beyond space-body-time- birth-death parameters.
Forth: Alex, Ardeshir, Dino, Bahman, Parviz, none of us are trained as Philologists to have the authority to definitely say what exact meaning fits which exact Gathic or Avestan word. We just cling to our favorite Philologists when it comes to deciphering the meanings of the key words we need. Even the top philologists are not in agreement with one another as each of them have their own pet-corner they want to drag any philosophical argument to. Alex's solution not to translate into English key words does not help; it just keeps us in fog not knowing what it is that we want to exactly say.
Having said all of the above, now lets get to the meaning of Mazda.
All philologists agree that Mazda has something to do with Mind and that Mind has to do with Thinking. Mazda has two parts, the Maz part and the Da part. We need to know, is it the MAz part that connotes Intelligence and Thinking or the DA part. My teachers, Mr. Behrooz and Dr. Moghadam thought me that it is the MA part that has to do with MIND and comes from the same basic Aryan root as Mind and Manesh. Ostad Jafarey thought at Sazemane Faravahar for many years that it was the DA part that was related to DANESH and thus meant Wisdom or Intelligence. So the argument remained, is it the MA of Mazda which makes it mean MIND or is it the DA part of Mazda which means intelligence. Why is this important? Because per the initial teachings of Jafarey, the MAZ part means BIG, in that way we get a BIG-MIND which is nothing more than the BIG-DADDY (who art in heavens, hallow be thy name, give us our daily bread).
Having this argument before, we went to Prof. Martin Schwartz of Berkley and asked him what he thought. He agreed that it was the MA part that connected us with the MIND meaning, that the z and the da prats were just additives. Alex and I celebrated, and when I presented Martin's view to Jafarey, he agreed that Martin was right. Now we have Mr. Farahmand arguing again that there is a BIG somewhere in Mazda in the MAZ part of it that means BIG and the DA part of it means Danesh or wisdom.
My position is that I do not care who says that there is a BIG-DADDY. I do not like the Big Daddy concept and I will never go back to him hat in hand as a fallen creature. I will walk joyously using the imagery that the archetypal Ameshaspands give me towards living in harmony with my MOTHER the Gavush Urvan, the COW, but "Our Father in Heavens", I do not like Him, I do not love Him, and I do not wish to be united with Him.
Mehr Afzoon,
Parviz Varjavand
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